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Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    No, no, no. I'm not going to let you pull the same cheap stunt twice.
    You clipped the very point being made, that’s the “cheap stunt”. I said that this was a “point not worth making because MM excluded the “outlier”, as he called it, of the Port Arthur massacre and with it the potential for further mass shootings”.

    This is the topic, not “killings” per se.

    What the Australian government did was respond to the Port Arthur mass shooting in 1996 by buying-back and banning firearms. And there have been NO mass shootings in Australia since.

    NZ is sensibly respoding to its mass shooting in Christchurch the same way. Something the US, with its monthly mass shootings could well learn from:

    https://www.motherjones.com/politics...nes-full-data/
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      You clipped the very point being made, that’s the “cheap stunt”. I said that this was a “point not worth making because MM excluded the “outlier”, as he called it, of the Port Arthur massacre and with it the potential for further mass shootings”.

      This is the topic, not “killings” per se.

      What the Australian government did was respond to the Port Arthur mass shooting in 1996 by buying-back and banning firearms. And there have been NO mass shootings in Australia since.

      NZ is sensibly respoding to its mass shooting in Christchurch the same way. Something the US, with its monthly mass shootings could well learn from:

      https://www.motherjones.com/politics...nes-full-data/
      He was talking about the homicide rate in Australia since Port Arthur and how it has not dropped so it matters not a whit whether or not he considers it an outlier.

      And "Mother Jones"? Really?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        He was talking about the homicide rate in Australia since Port Arthur and how it has not dropped so it matters not a whit whether or not he considers it an outlier.
        No, he’s actually talking about the homicide rate before and after the gun ban and claiming it made no difference. But he like you is missing the point. The firearms ban was in reaction to the mass shooting in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded in Port Arthur, with the intention that such a mass shooting never occur in Australia again.

        And it hasn’t.

        In short, the firearms ban succeeded in its intention. Similarly, the same will no doubt apply in NZ also.

        And "Mother Jones"? Really?
        Perhaps you would prefer The Guardian, same figures but with nice graphs? “Mass shootings in the US: there have been 1,624 in 1,870 days. No other developed nation comes close to the rate of US gun violence."

        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-gun-violence
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          No, he’s actually talking about the homicide rate before and after the gun ban and claiming it made no difference.
          Umm, that is what I said.
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          But he like you is missing the point. The firearms ban was in reaction to the mass shooting in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded in Port Arthur, with the intention that such a mass shooting never occur in Australia again.
          His and my point is that while it may have decreased the number of firearms-related homicide, folks just found other ways to kill each other since the homicide rate did not drop. That is what you keep trying to distract and deflect attention from.

          And your cavalier dismissive attitude toward those killed by means other than by someone using a firearm is blatantly obvious for all to see. All you care about are those killed by a gun. It is crystal clear that all that matters to you is what was used by the killer to commit homicide with and if it isn't a gun then it doesn't matter.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Tassman: "Stop proving me wrong you guys!!! "

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

              His and my point is that while it may have decreased the number of firearms-related homicide, folks just found other ways to kill each other since the homicide rate did not drop. That is what you keep trying to distract and deflect attention from.
              Folks have NOT “just found other ways to kill each other” on the scale of the gun massacre as per Port Arthur, i.e. 35 people killed and 23 wounded. This is the point of the firearms ban.

              And your cavalier dismissive attitude toward those killed by means other than by someone using a firearm is blatantly obvious for all to see. All you care about are those killed by a gun. It is crystal clear that all that matters to you is what was used by the killer to commit homicide with and if it isn't a gun then it doesn't matter.
              You mean as opposed to your “cavalier dismissive attitude” towards the potential victims of another gun massacre of the type that is so commonplace in the USA.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Folks have NOT “just found other ways to kill each other” on the scale of the gun massacre as per Port Arthur, i.e. 35 people killed and 23 wounded. This is the point of the firearms ban.



                You mean as opposed to your “cavalier dismissive attitude” towards the potential victims of another gun massacre of the type that is so commonplace in the USA.
                As I said, in your warped and twisted view the only thing that matters is whether or not a firearm was used when someone is killed. If not, you don't care. They don't count. They are less than nothing.

                You are applying your pro-abortion mentality consistently.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  As I said, in your warped and twisted view the only thing that matters is whether or not a firearm was used when someone is killed. If not, you don't care. They don't count. They are less than nothing.

                  You are applying your pro-abortion mentality consistently.
                  As we said, these types of weapons are just too dangerous - it's too easy to kill people with them. Your argument is that it's just as easy with other types of weapons, we do not agree with that assessment. The list of Australian massacres also doesn't agree with that assessment.

                  The guns are banned now. Good riddance.

                  If you want to play with guns, that remains possible. Just not every type of gun.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                    As we said, these types of weapons are just too dangerous - it's too easy to kill people with them. Your argument is that it's just as easy with other types of weapons, we do not agree with that assessment. The list of Australian massacres also doesn't agree with that assessment.

                    The guns are banned now. Good riddance.

                    If you want to play with guns, that remains possible. Just not every type of gun.
                    chap in Japan killed 33 people yesterday with a can of petrol and a box of matches......
                    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                    1 Corinthians 16:13

                    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                    -Ben Witherington III

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                      As we said, these types of weapons are just too dangerous - it's too easy to kill people with them. Your argument is that it's just as easy with other types of weapons, we do not agree with that assessment. The list of Australian massacres also doesn't agree with that assessment.

                      The guns are banned now. Good riddance.

                      If you want to play with guns, that remains possible. Just not every type of gun.
                      Not. Even. Close.

                      If you were correct then we would be seeing a decline in the murder rate. But we don't. Meanwhile here in the U.S. gun ownership has skyrocketed at exactly the same time that gun-related deaths have plummeted.

                      Fail better.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Not. Even. Close.

                        If you were correct then we would be seeing a decline in the murder rate. But we don't. Meanwhile here in the U.S. gun ownership has skyrocketed at exactly the same time that gun-related deaths have plummeted.

                        Fail better.
                        Close to what? Again, the top end of massacres in terms of dead and injured in both country were the result of semiautomatic weapons. End of point. The type of weapon that has been banned in both countries.

                        Murder rate =/= massacre rate. So, why do you keep making the association.

                        Also, murder rates in Australia and New Zealand are tiny compared to that of the US - seriously, what is wrong with the US for so many people to feel they need to go murdering. Maybe sort your own backwards country out before judging others on their largely successful public order efforts.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                          Close to what? Again, the top end of massacres in terms of dead and injured in both country were the result of semiautomatic weapons. End of point. The type of weapon that has been banned in both countries.

                          Murder rate =/= massacre rate. So, why do you keep making the association.

                          Also, murder rates in Australia and New Zealand are tiny compared to that of the US - seriously, what is wrong with the US for so many people to feel they need to go murdering. Maybe sort your own backwards country out before judging others on their largely successful public order efforts.

                          There is no such statistic as "massacre rate" - now you are just making up stuff.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            There is no such statistic as "massacre rate" - now you are just making up stuff.
                            Yeah, good one Sparko.

                            Semiautomatics resulted in the highest death tolls for massacres in New Zealand and Australia. That is why the weapons are banned. You don't like it, then don't move here. Stay and clean up the murder mess that is the US.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                              Yeah, good one Sparko.

                              Semiautomatics resulted in the highest death tolls for massacres in New Zealand and Australia. That is why the weapons are banned. You don't like it, then don't move here. Stay and clean up the murder mess that is the US.
                              Just how many massacres do you have in New Zealand that you have to measure them by their own "rate?" - even in the the evil USA we just have a "homicide rate" which measures various types of killings per 100,000 people. Because homicides are a continual thing to be measured.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Just how many massacres do you have in New Zealand that you have to measure them by their own "rate?" - even in the the evil USA we just have a "homicide rate" which measures various types of killings per 100,000 people. Because homicides are a continual thing to be measured.
                                In New Zealand and in Australia, the highest death tolls from any massacre occurred with a semiautomatic. They make mass murder too easy. That is why they are banned. Terrorists could use other weapons, however, they carry more risks, and have lower likely casualty counts - given the use of these types of mass murder weapons compared to semiautomatics in Australia and New Zealand.

                                Yes, we measure homicide rates. In New Zealand there are 0.7 homicides per 100,000 people, in Australia, 0.8. In the US, meanwhile, that rate is 5.3 per 100,000 people. This is actually largely irrelevant to the point at hand.

                                We could say that it is clear that guns are not making it safer to be in the US, by a long shot. Look at the correlation, high gun ownership and almost 8x the number of murders.

                                Comment

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