Why Democrats Can�t Talk Honestly About Abortion

[Cow Poke]

[rogue06]

[Christianbookworm]

When does murder stop being okay? Why is murder wrong if we are merely apes. We don't toss chimps in prison for killing their fellow chimps. Though, that may be because they have the intellect of a small child...

[Starlight]

Personally I was wondering yesterday why conservatives on this forum are never honest about abortion.

[rogue06]

Personally I was wondering yesterday why conservatives on this forum are never honest about abortion.

I'll grant you this, at least you are very forthwith about your support of slaughtering newborns and infants.

[Starlight]

When does murder stop being okay?

Well a lot of conservatives on this forum who get so hung up about abortion seem to be fine with murder when its done by police to criminals, the State in the death-penalty, individuals with guns in Stand-Your-Ground laws, soldiers in wars, or by drone strikes. All of which I am against in general. So maybe ask yourself and fellow conservatives your question first: Why you all are so okay with murder under many circumstances but get very upset about it when it comes to abortion?

We don't toss chimps in prison for killing their fellow chimps. Though, that may be because they have the intellect of a small child...

In my view, which is a very common view among secular people, though not shared by everyone: What matters is the mental abilities of the victim.

A rock has no mind at all, so cutting up rocks isn't a moral issue at all. A plant has virtually zero mind so cutting them up is pretty much not a problem. Small insects just work on a few neurons guiding them to move around so squashing them isn't really an issue. But with the higher mammals they start to have quite sophisticated mental abilities: Consciousness, basic language, ability to mourn, good memories, complex social behaviors and interactions, can learn to use tools to solve basic problems, can recognize themselves in a mirror, etc. So the killing of higher-cognition animals for food is a very morally problematic practice. As such I want to see society protect all higher-cognition animals and move away from using them as a food source for humans.

With regard to human development, any given human starts out as a single fertilized cell which obviously at that stage of development has zero brain and zero mental abilities. As the fetus develops it begins to develop a brain, creates some basic mental connections etc. Humans are actually a quite unusually late-developing species when it comes to mental development. e.g. a baby horse is born with the ability to walk within an hour or two of birth etc while a baby human takes about a year to learn to walk. The reason for this is because humans stand upright the hips of human mothers are narrow compared to other species and hence human babies heads get squashed as they go through the birth canal. A result of this squashing is that the human infants brain would receive massive brain damage if it had been significantly developed pre-birth, so instead human infants have evolved to have absolutely minimal pre-birth brain development and to begin brain development post-birth. Whereas species like horses can have their offspring born with a fairly fully developed brain that knows how to walk etc. Post-birth human babies then being to rapidly develop their brains, surpassing apes in intelligence / mental capabilities at about 2 years of age.

So looked at on the scale of mental abilities, a pre-birth human fetus has a level of mental development lower than that of a cow or a sheep, animals which our society currently regularly slaughters for food (which I think is morally wrong and shouldn't be done - see above). In that context, a choice to abort a fetus is less morally wrong than the choice to kill an animal for food, because the mental development of the fetus is lower than that of the animal being killed.

[lilpixieofterror]

Well a lot of conservatives on this forum who get so hung up about abortion seem to be fine with murder when its done by police to criminals, the State in the death-penalty, soldiers in wars, or by drone strikes. All of which I am against in general. So maybe ask yourself and fellow conservatives your question first: Why you all are so okay with murder under many circumstances but get very upset about it when it comes to abortion?

In my view, which is a very common view among secular people, though not shared by everyone: What matters is the mental abilities of the victim.

A rock has no mind at all, so cutting up rocks isn't a moral issue at all. A plant has virtually zero mind so cutting them up is pretty much not a problem. Small insects just work on a few neurons guiding them to move around so squashing them isn't really an issue. But with the higher mammals they start to have quite sophisticated mental abilities: Consciousness, basic language, ability to mourn, good memories, complex social behaviors and interactions, can learn to use tools to solve basic problems, can recognize themselves in a mirror, etc. So the killing of higher-cognition animals for food is a very morally problematic practice. As such I want to see society protect all higher-cognition animals and move away from using them as a food source for humans.

With regard to human development, any given human starts out as a single fertilized cell which obviously at that stage of development has zero brain and zero mental abilities. As the fetus develops it begins to develop a brain, creates some basic mental connections etc. Humans are actually a quite unusually late-developing species when it comes to mental development. e.g. a baby horse is born with the ability to walk within an hour or two of birth etc while a baby human takes about a year to learn to walk. The reason for this is because humans stand upright the hips of human mothers are narrow compared to other species and hence human babies heads get squashed as they go through the birth canal. A result of this squashing is that the human infants brain would receive massive brain damage if it had been significantly developed pre-birth, so instead human infants have evolved to have absolutely minimal pre-birth brain development and to begin brain development post-birth. Whereas species like horses can have their offspring born with a fairly fully developed brain that knows how to walk etc. Post-birth human babies then being to rapidly develop their brains, surpassing apes in intelligence / mental capabilities at about 2 years of age.

So looked at on the scale of mental abilities, a pre-birth human fetus has a level of mental development lower than that of a cow or a sheep, animals which our society currently regularly slaughters for food (which I think is morally wrong and shouldn't be done - see above). In that context, a choice to abort a fetus is less morally wrong than the choice to kill an animal for food, because the mental development of the fetus is lower than that of the animal being killed.

[Christianbookworm]

So, when do you want some fetus burgers, star?

[carpedm9587]

and, if those babies happen to survive an attempt on their lives, after birth, as well.

I cannot say that I have vetted this entire article, but the bolded/underlined part of it jumped out at me. It seems patently absurd that any state would pass a law permitting the killing of a viable infant after it is separate from the woman's body. As I suspected, the statement is false. It is yet another effort to fear-monger this already emotionally laden subject.

Note that I am not taking a position on, or defending, late-term abortions. I find abortions abhorrent. But there is no need to mislead in order to take a position.

And I will ask a question I asked CP in another venue: do any of you honestly believe that some 58% (sorry, CP, I think I used 65% as the number in my question to you. I had my stats crossed) of the people around you are functioning sociopaths? I'd be very interested in knowing what the answer to this question is. To help:

Sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

[Starlight]

So, when do you want some fetus burgers, star?

Apart from the yuck factor, any species eating its own species is a really bad idea medically because parasites and viruses etc get directly transferred. If you look up prion disease, it's really really nasty stuff.

I would, however, like to try artificially grown meat burgers that grow the meat in a lab without killing any animals...

Burgers made from artificial meat could be in restaurants by 2021

[Cow Poke]

Personally I was wondering yesterday why conservatives on this forum are never honest about abortion.

This really rings hollow from our local "it's ok to kill the baby after birth" nutcase.

[Christianbookworm]

Hey! Babies are sterile. If it can be slaughtered like a calf, then why not eat it?

[Cow Poke]

Well a lot of conservatives on this forum who get so hung up about abortion seem to be fine with murder when its done by police to criminals...

Any screed that begins with this much jacakssery deserves to be ignored.

[Starlight]

Babies are sterile.

This was an old medical myth/assumption that has since been disproved. Fetuses in the womb are subjected to bacteria etc from their mothers' bodies.

[Starlight]

Any screed that begins with this much jacakssery deserves to be ignored.

That's why I didn't read 90% of your OP article.