Hillary Unhinged! Tulsi Gabbard & Jill Stein Russian assets...

[rogue06]

That's a very firm possibility. In fact, I've been mulling over the claim that the left is (or once was) anti-war. Were they ever really anti-war, or was it just a partisan thing? Even during the Vietnam war, when the hippies had the marches, were they really anti-war or was it just a reaction against Nixon? I'm beginning to think the "anti-war left" is just a partisan charade. However, I do think there are deep establishment Dems that are truly war hawks that do benefit from military incursions. For example, the reason why the liberal media darling msnbc was so harsh against liberal voices that protested the Iraq war. But that's a whole other rabbithole to go down.

There was a large anti-War movement during LBJ's time one which likely played a significant role in his deciding not to seek re-election.

[NorrinRadd]

She didn't mention a name, but... come on... who still in the Dem primary could she have possibly been referring to? Gabbard is the only one that could run independent (even though I believe she's stated otherwise) since a lot of her policies (especially her foreign policy) don't at all fit into the typical progressive or establishment Dem mold. She's also the only one in the line-up that's been slandered as a Putin/Assad puppet continuously ( by the left media strangely enough) for her unconventional stance on Syria and military interventionism.

Who do you think she was referring to?

You guys know Tulsi herself took the comments as directed at her, and responded aggressively on Twitter, right?

[KingsGambit]

You guys know Tulsi herself took the comments as directed at her, and responded aggressively on Twitter, right?

And Hillary's spokesman all but confirmed it was Tulsi when directly asked.

That, and Tulsi Gabbard has been accused of being a Russian stooge for months.

[rogue06]

And Hillary's spokesman all but confirmed it was Tulsi when directly asked.

That, and Tulsi Gabbard has been accused of being a Russian stooge for months.

I believe the response to whether Hillary was referring to Tulsi Gabbard was, "if he nesting doll fits."

Gabbard in turn said that Hillary is the "embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot" which infest the Democratic Party and challenged her to get into the campaign rather than "cowardly hid[ing]" behind proxies.

[seanD]

There always was and remains an anti-militarism wing on the left, just as on the right. To the argument about Trump, there's a small amount of truth there but it's very much not true on the whole. The progressive left, for example, didn't want Obama to enter into the Syrian civil war and still opposed Trump's (ineffectual) military strike against a Syrian airport early in his term. The progressive left has not, to my knowledge, advocated increased military action in any theater of conflict during Trump's term. And while Trump's increased use of drone attacks and increase of civilian casualties thanks to loosened rules of engagement have largely gone under the radar, the progressive criticism hasn't changed much, in degree or pitch, from Obama.

So "warmongering" doesn't work. What we're dealing with right now is the abandonment of an ally with absolutely no strategic or political value, alongside the decision to send >1000 troops to Saudi Arabia for also no strategic or political value. Ideally, folks on the left and right want the military used sparingly and with some sense of responsibility.

--Sam

That's indeed the standard NPC talking point about a very complex situation. "But, but... the kurds are our allies." Heck, I don't even understand the situation fully and I'm about as up to speed on this geopolitical stuff as anyone only because I find it interesting more than I'm guessing the average person does. I doubt most liberals spouting off "the kurds are our allies" could even find Syria on a map if pressed to do so. I highly doubt, and I mean HIGHLY doubt most liberal NPCs understand the complexity of the situation beyond it being a convenient way to espouse more of the same anti-Trump rhetoric hysteria, so I definitely believe rogue has a point.

[rogue06]

I believe the response to whether Hillary was referring to Tulsi Gabbard was, "if he nesting doll fits."

Gabbard in turn said that Hillary is the "embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot" which infest the Democratic Party and challenged her to get into the campaign rather than "cowardly hid[ing]" behind proxies.

That of course should be, "if the nesting doll fits."

[Sam]

That's indeed the standard NPC talking point about a very complex situation. "But, but... the kurds are our allies." Heck, I don't even understand the situation fully and I'm about as up to speed on this geopolitical stuff as anyone only because I find it interesting more than I'm guessing the average person does. I doubt most liberals spouting off "the kurds are our allies" could even find Syria on a map if pressed to do so. I highly doubt, and I mean HIGHLY doubt most liberal NPCs understand the complexity of the situation beyond it being a convenient way to espouse more of the same anti-Trump rhetoric hysteria, so I definitely believe rogue has a point.

"Most people on the progressive left are ignorant therefore they're only motivated by alternating anti-Trump partisanship and warmongering" does not rise to the level of rigorous critique.

Most people can't name five SCOTUS justices (or three) but that doesn't mean that folks don't care about SCOTUS decisions. "It's complicated" is a fair argument ... but then that invalidates the other simplistic arguments being made about Democrats or progressive folk on the left.

--Sam

[seanD]

"Most people on the progressive left are ignorant therefore they're only motivated by alternating anti-Trump partisanship and warmongering" does not rise to the level of rigorous critique.

Most people can't name five SCOTUS justices (or three) but that doesn't mean that folks don't care about SCOTUS decisions. "It's complicated" is a fair argument ... but then that invalidates the other simplistic arguments being made about Democrats or progressive folk on the left.

--Sam

Understanding how impactful a scotus decision is on our societal well-being without knowing the players making that decision by name and understanding a complex foreign entanglement in the middle east is comparing apples and oranges. Dude, seriously.

[Sam]

Understanding how impactful a scotus decision is on our societal well-being without knowing the players making that decision by name and understanding a complex foreign entanglement in the middle east is comparing apples and oranges. Dude, seriously.

This would presume that SCOTUS decisions are relatively simple and their effects easily discerned. I'd say it's almost always the opposite and, like geopolitical conflicts, people largely rely on news blurbs -- left, right, and center alike.

So the argument that the left is full of warmongers who are calling Syrian Kurds allies only because they're anti-Trump doesn't hold any weight. Especially considering that we went through a long and intense period when conservatives flooded Fox News, CNN, and social media with support for YPG during Obama's term.

It's a good deal more likely that folks on the left "learned" about Syrian Kurds about the same time that folks on the right did and established a baseline understanding of the relationship during that media campaign.

--Sam

[seanD]

This would presume that SCOTUS decisions are relatively simple and their effects easily discerned. I'd say it's almost always the opposite and, like geopolitical conflicts, people largely rely on news blurbs -- left, right, and center alike.

So the argument that the left is full of warmongers who are calling Syrian Kurds allies only because they're anti-Trump doesn't hold any weight. Especially considering that we went through a long and intense period when conservatives flooded Fox News, CNN, and social media with support for YPG during Obama's term.

It's a good deal more likely that folks on the left "learned" about Syrian Kurds about the same time that folks on the right did and established a baseline understanding of the relationship during that media campaign.

--Sam

"Baseline understanding" won't due to a complex situation. Like I said, they know that Trump is bad because "the kurds are our allies" NPC talking point and that's about a baseline as it gets.

[demi-conservative]

I think for many of them their sudden new-found hawkish positions are a direct result of their being the opposite of what Trump is doing. IOW, if Trump was talking about staying in Syria indefinitely they would be declaring that we need to get out.

They probably would.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-syria/600253/

Who knows, they might actually be anti-war, but being anti-Trump is a higher priority.

[demi-conservative]

https://www.vox.com/2019/9/13/208641...fghanistan-war

Pulling out immediately is a hundred times more irresponsible and crazy than what they're accusing Trump of doing in Syria. They just want to pander to the public that is getting increasingly tired of war.

[demi-conservative]

Hillary Unhinged!

She really should run. As crazy as she's getting, Trump might even win California.

[rogue06]

Interestingly only Marianne Williamson and Andrew Yang have defended Gabbard and Cory "I am Spartacus" Booker mocked Gabbard's response to Hillary.

Both were scheduled to speak at Fortune's Most Powerful Women Summit but Hillary has suddenly backed out. Perhaps Gabbard is right about Hillary being a coward.

[Mountain Man]

Putting up a 3rd party candidate to draw off moderate democratic voters would be a good way to increase the probability of a Trump 2nd term. Whether that is actually their plan, it's a plausible means of keeping their preferred candidate in office.


Jim

Please tell me this is satire.