Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian

[oxmixmudd]

Such as whether one calls "heads" or "tails" before tossing a coin. That's a free choice that isn't forced, and isn't necessarily a random event.I have thought about it. You might have shown that free will and infallibility can co-exist (C) ONLY if etc (X), but you haven't shown that they can exist IF (X).

Not X -> Not C -/-> X -> C.

Then either infallibility is sacrificed, or free will is unprovable and there's no reason to believe claims that it exists. Do you think God could tell you what he knows you will choose?

We were not addressing whether we should believe claims it exists, or whether it can be proven to exist. We were discussing if it is possible for the two (infallibility,free-will) to co-exist. And we have established they can in a system where it is impossible to prove to myself I have free-will.

Can God tell me? I suppose He could, because in that case He knows what I know, and so He would be aware of the effect of Him telling me. It would create an interesting paradox though. Suppose I would then try to thwart it, and He knows I would try to thwart it. Would he let me thwart it? That might could be construed as God lying, because He would know that I would do something else once He told me.

Jim

[JimL]

exactly. Today we wouldn't say God's knowledge of what happened in 2017 was "foreknowledge" but it was to us when we were in 2015. But God is not limited to what we call "now" He is in 2015, 2017, 2020, etc. He is omnipresent in space and time. He is not constrained by our universe in any way.

If that's true, then use your common sense and recognize the fact that if god is everywhere in time, and of course has therefore always been everywhere in time, then Duh,! everywhere in time exists and therefore no free will!

[JimL]

We were not addressing whether we should believe claims it exists, or whether it can be proven to exist. We were discussing if it is possible for the two (infallibility,free-will) to co-exist. And we have established they can in a system where it is impossible to prove to myself I have free-will.

Can God tell me? I suppose He could, because in that case He knows what I know, and so He would be aware of the effect of Him telling me. It would create an interesting paradox though. Suppose I would then try to thwart it, and He knows I would try to thwart it. Would he let me thwart it? That might could be construed as God lying, because He would know that I would do something else once He told me.

Jim

Jim, do you believe that your future has already occured in some sense that god can know it? I ask because that seems to be your argument. So, is that what you believe, that in a certain respect your future has already occured and that god has access to that info?

[Tassman]

That is, as they say, a non-sequitur. If I could know how God does whatever He does, He wouldn't be God, then would He?

But as I see it, the 'design' simply involves creating a system that allows for free will. That in the Garden he created man and then allowed man to self-determine his fate. And yes, He knew what Adam and Even would do. But no, He didn't make them do it. The were free to chose another path.

But God created Adam and Eve knowing what they would choose. So how could they be "free to choose another path"?

[Roy]

If the cause of God foreknowing he will choose X is him actually choosing X then there is no conflict.

But then it isn't foreknowledge.

Actually "foreknow" is a misnomer because it is assuming God at a spot in time before the action looking at the future. God is outside of time so he is not sitting here in 2019 looking forward to 2020 knowing what is going to happen. He is everywhere. He is IN 2020 right now knowing what you did in 2019. He is in 2050, 1960, 5000 BC, etc.

He just "knows" because to him it has all happened. But he knowledge is a result of our choices not the cause.

Yup, this avoids the contradiction because - as you say - it's not foreknowledge.

Meanwhile, MM is 'amenning' you despite you disagreeing with him...

[Roy]

We were not addressing whether we should believe claims it exists, or whether it can be proven to exist. We were discussing if it is possible for the two (infallibility,free-will) to co-exist. And we have established they can in a system where it is impossible to prove to myself I have free-will.

I don't think you have - I think you've merely introduced unnecessary concepts that cloud the issue.

Having thought about it last night, the core problem is this:

1. You have a choice of actions.
2. God knows what choice you will make before you make it.

Can you make a choice other than that which God knows you will make?

If you can, God doesn't know what choice you will make. Contradicts #2.
If you can't, you don't have a choice of actions. Contradicts #1.

Since either answer leads to a contradiction, #1 and #2 are incompatible.

Introduction other possible worlds, or knowledge of God's choice, or provability, or necessity, just adds complication that obscures the above.

Can God tell me? I suppose He could, because in that case He knows what I know, and so He would be aware of the effect of Him telling me. It would create an interesting paradox though.

It's been explored in countless ways in both philosophy and fiction (see also here). Many of them cover this paradox and others.

[Mountain Man]

Meanwhile, MM is 'amenning' you despite you disagreeing with him...

Sparko hasn't disagreed with me, he's repeating what I've said previously.

[Roy]

Sparko hasn't disagreed with me, he's repeating what I've said previously.

Sparko just disagreed with what you just said.

[Mountain Man]

Sparko just disagreed with what you just said.

Wrong again, little man.

What Mountain Man posted earlier in the thread:

The term "foreknowledge" only relates to our perspective. If God "foreknows" from my perspective that I will choose to do X, it's because from God's perspective, he has already seen me choose to do X. The simplest way to put it is that God's "foreknowledge" is the result of my actions and not the cause.

Here's what Sparko posted:

Actually "foreknow" is a misnomer because it is assuming God at a spot in time before the action looking at the future. God is outside of time so he is not sitting here in 2019 looking forward to 2020 knowing what is going to happen. He is everywhere. He is IN 2020 right now knowing what you did in 2019. He is in 2050, 1960, 5000 BC, etc.

He just "knows" because to him it has all happened. But he knowledge is a result of our choices not the cause.

To which Mountain Man replied:

Which is why I say the term "foreknowledge" only makes sense from our temporal perspective.

And Sparko agreed:

exactly. Today we wouldn't say God's knowledge of what happened in 2017 was "foreknowledge" but it was to us when we were in 2015. But God is not limited to what we call "now" He is in 2015, 2017, 2020, etc. He is omnipresent in space and time. He is not constrained by our universe in any way.

Tell me, Ignorant Roy, where's the disagreement?

[oxmixmudd]

But God created Adam and Eve knowing what they would choose. So how could they be "free to choose another path"?

That statement itself is a subject of much debates these days. Nevertheless, accepting it on face value:

I know that unless I intervene my son will play his games before he does his homework. Does that knowledge on my part in any way guide, direct, or otherwise force my son to play his games first?


Jim

[Sparko]

If that's true, then use your common sense and recognize the fact that if god is everywhere in time, and of course has therefore always been everywhere in time, then Duh,! everywhere in time exists and therefore no free will!

everywhere in time does exist. And so does free will because just like looking at the past which can't be changed but was made of free will decisions, the future is made up of free will decisions.

[JimL]

Wrong again, little man.

What Mountain Man posted earlier in the thread:


Here's what Sparko posted:


To which Mountain Man replied:


And Sparko agreed:

And that is what we call cognitive dissonance, MM. If it isn't foreknowledge from gods perspective, then it isn't foreknowledge period. You may want to argue that for some reason we are not aware of the future, but whether we are aware of it or not, if god, or if anyone else for that matter, has access to the future, then it exists. Oh, and if the future exists, then there is no free will.

[Sparko]

But then it isn't foreknowledge. Yup, this avoids the contradiction because - as you say - it's not foreknowledge.

Meanwhile, MM is 'amenning' you despite you disagreeing with him...

We call it foreknowledge because we are talking about our future, but it is actually "omniscience" if you want to get technical.

[JimL]

everywhere in time does exist. And so does free will because just like looking at the past which can't be changed but was made of free will decisions, the future is made up of free will decisions.

So, all of time exists, and all of our choices have occured, including your future choices, and yet you still think that in that scenario you also have free will? You seriously can not see the contradiction in that idea?

[oxmixmudd]

Jim, do you believe that your future has already occured in some sense that god can know it? I ask because that seems to be your argument. So, is that what you believe, that in a certain respect your future has already occured and that god has access to that info?

I love trying to talk about timelessness using time based terms. It is destined for contradiction and multiple paradoxes.

(1) I don't think the future has to 'exist' for God to know what it 'will be'.

(2) It might 'exist', but I tend to think the 'future' and the 'past', relative to any given 'now' are not necessarily 'fixed' things. IOW, I am not sure there is anything other than 'now', but there are a whole bunch of them.


Jim