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  • #76
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs.
    It does follow. Evolution 'cares' about anything that affects reproductive ability.
    As a matter of fact given naturalism beliefs are most likely epiphenomenal with no causal effect.
    That would only be true if no-one ever chose between actions based on their beliefs.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs.
      Behavior based on false beliefs will seldom be adaptive. Therefore it is reasonable to think natural selection would have wired our brains to produce true beliefs more often than not.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs. As a matter of fact given naturalism beliefs are most likely epiphenomenal with no causal effect.
        That is a regurgitaton of Plantinga's argument, which fails for the reasons I cited in my other post.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Roy View Post
          It does follow. Evolution 'cares' about anything that affects reproductive ability.
          So what? It still does not care about true beliefs as long as you reproduce.


          That would only be true if no-one ever chose between actions based on their beliefs.
          Well according to epiphenomenalism neurology, not beliefs, drive everything. Our conscious thought have no causal effect.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            That is a regurgitaton of Plantinga's argument, which fails for the reasons I cited in my other post.
            No Carp, if epiphenomenalism is true conscious beliefs play no causal role. Evolution does not care about beliefs.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              So designed creatures can be programmed to have false views of reality? So much for the idea that theism would result in rationality...
              People believed many false things throughout history: The earth is flat, the sun goes around the earth, You could transmute lead into gold, disease was caused by bad air and humors, aether, spontaneous generation, evolution.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                No Carp, if epiphenomenalism is true conscious beliefs play no causal role. Evolution does not care about beliefs.
                Evolution doesn't "care" about anything. However, as I noted, if our perception/reasoning does not align with reality, our probability of survival is diminished. This is what Plantinga ignores. A brain/reasoning process that does not reflect reality, does not perceive and/or reason accurately, exposes us to dangers in a way that accurate perceptions/reasoning do not. Unless you want to suggest that someone with a distorted perception of reality or reasoning is better able to survive daily exposure to cliffs, stairs, roads, carnivors, judge the speed of oncoming objects, reason to the cause/effect results of grabbing a knife by the blade, pointing a gun at one's own head, or drinking/eating any number of poisonous things, etc. Because accurate perception/reasoning increases odds of survival - natural selection will tend to select those that perceive and reason accurately. Since those ar ethe same functions that we use to form beliefs, they then have the same impact there. Plantinga ignores this reality to make his argument.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Evolution doesn't "care" about anything. However, as I noted, if our perception/reasoning does not align with reality, our probability of survival is diminished. This is what Plantinga ignores. A brain/reasoning process that does not reflect reality, does not perceive and/or reason accurately, exposes us to dangers in a way that accurate perceptions/reasoning do not. Unless you want to suggest that someone with a distorted perception of reality or reasoning is better able to survive daily exposure to cliffs, stairs, roads, carnivors, judge the speed of oncoming objects, reason to the cause/effect results of grabbing a knife by the blade, pointing a gun at one's own head, or drinking/eating any number of poisonous things, etc. Because accurate perception/reasoning increases odds of survival - natural selection will tend to select those that perceive and reason accurately. Since those ar ethe same functions that we use to form beliefs, they then have the same impact there. Plantinga ignores this reality to make his argument.
                  Look at it this way, most animals survive just fine without beliefs of any kind. And if epiphenomenalism is true, which is now widely accepted, beliefs play NO CAUSAL role in your choices or decisions. Those are biologically predetermined. Your neurology is all that counts, conscious beliefs play no part.

                  To quote Patricia Churchland:

                  Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four F's: feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principle chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive.... . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.

                  Or to quote Darwin:

                  But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"
                  Last edited by seer; 02-09-2018, 11:24 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by seer
                    Evolution 'cares' about anything that affects reproductive ability.
                    So what? It still does not care about true beliefs as long as you reproduce.
                    As long as you reproduce. If your beliefs affect your ability to reproduce, evolution 'cares'. Cf Heaven's Gate.
                    Well according to epiphenomenalism neurology, not beliefs, drive everything. Our conscious thought have no causal effect. ... if epiphenomenalism is true conscious beliefs play no causal role.
                    If epiphenomenalism is true. Do you have any evidence or argument that it is?

                    You're begging questions.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      People believed many false things throughout history: The earth is flat, the sun goes around the earth, You could transmute lead into gold, disease was caused by bad air and humors, aether, spontaneous generation,
                      So? Do you not realise that people who lack those beliefs now outnumber people who hold them? Evolution in action
                      evolution.
                      You misspelt 'Christianity'.
                      Last edited by Roy; 02-09-2018, 11:39 AM.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        . . . (yes, I am assuming there is a flaw in his reasoning because his conclusions are not consistent with mine. . . .
                        This explains everything.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          If epiphenomenalism is true. Do you have any evidence or argument that it is?

                          You're begging questions.
                          Well as dualist I don't believe that epiphenomenalism is true, you need to show how beliefs have a causal effect apart from dualism... Science seems to be clearly moving that way. But you do agree that if epiphenomenalism is true then beliefs play no causal role - correct?


                          A large body of neurophysiological data seems to support epiphenomenalism. Some of the oldest such data is the Bereitschaftspotential or "readiness potential" in which electrical activity related to voluntary actions can be recorded up to two seconds before the subject is aware of making a decision to perform the action. More recently Benjamin Libet et al. (1979) have shown that it can take 0.5 seconds before a stimulus becomes part of conscious experience even though subjects can respond to the stimulus in reaction time tests within 200 milliseconds. Recent research on the Event Related Potential also shows that conscious experience does not occur until the late phase of the potential (P3 or later) that occurs 300 milliseconds or more after the event. In Bregman's auditory continuity illusion, where a pure tone is followed by broadband noise and the noise is followed by the same pure tone it seems as if the tone occurs throughout the period of noise. This also suggests a delay for processing data before conscious experience occurs. Popular science author Tor Nørretranders has called the delay the "user illusion", implying that we only have the illusion of conscious control, most actions being controlled automatically by non-conscious parts of the brain with the conscious mind relegated to the role of spectator.

                          The scientific data seem to support the idea that conscious experience is created by non-conscious processes in the brain (i.e., there is subliminal processing that becomes conscious experience). These results have been interpreted to suggest that people are capable of action before conscious experience of the decision to act occurs. Some argue that this supports epiphenomenalism, since it shows that the feeling of making a decision to act is actually an epiphenomenon; the action happens before the decision, so the decision did not cause the action to occur.


                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            So? Do you not realise that people who lack those beliefs now outnumber people who hold them? Evolution in action.
                            And more people by far believe in some form of Divinity, atheist are a minority. Now what?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              And more people by far believe in some form of Divinity, atheist are a minority. Now what?
                              Now that minority is increasing.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                So? Do you not realise that people who lack those beliefs now outnumber people who hold them? Evolution in action
                                I guess that is why theists outnumber atheists by over 10 to 1.

                                Comment

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