Ahmaud Arbery; racist killing and attempted cover up.

[Cow Poke]

One of the problems in a case like this is that the media gets out front with their narrative before all the facts are in.
Those who follow the MSM accept that narrative as a complete summary of the situation, regardless of facts that later come to light.

In the military, it's often said "first reports from the field are always wrong". That's often so true in journalism, too, with everybody rushing to be "first on the scene" and "exclusively on channel 10"....

It's much wiser to sit back and wait for the background to emerge before latching onto, and vigorously defending, the narrative that the media rushes to air.

[seanD]

Sorry to say, there is plenty of corruption and pedophilia happening in Protestant churches and by Protestant leaders. Is that ok then because they are 'real' Christians?

And the 'Scientific' Creationism I speak out against is itself 100% reliant upon lies and deception to make its case. But I guess that is ok - also because they are 'real' Christians?

And what you see as vitriol is a missed perception on your part. Perhaps colored by the general tone of those here that regularly regale what I have to say, most of the time peppered with some rather nasty insults of their own - from my perspective far more cutting and below the belt than anything I respond to them with. But I guess they also get a pass - once again - because they are 'real' Christians?

There were quite a few in here who had views similar to yours. Perhaps you can figure out why they faced less direct hostility than you did? Btw, no one in here that I saw was justifying the man's death. They were just exposing the false narrative surrounding the event. At it IS a false narrative, and for that, you have the audacity to accuse them (including myself) of being racist.

[JimL]

How many times have you gone 10 miles away from your own house on multiple occasions in the middle of the night to wander through the interior of a home under construction? MULTIPLE times AT NIGHT. Do you DO that, Jim? WHO DOES?

I used to jog 10 miles all the time when I was younger,which is neither here or there, but I have often times walked into home construction sites as well because it interested me to see how they were constructed. I was never suspected of anything nefarious or chased down the road by armed men. And I have no idea what time it was or what difference that makes. According to the video it was still daylight, so what difference would the time make.

When you come to a set of facts with a particular narrative, you're gonna see what you want to see. When you come to the facts with an open mind, it's quite a different outcome. To link this to the Martin case without knowing all the facts reveals your extreme bias.

The facts are that these men had no business chasing this person down with guns in hand, and the same goes for the maniac that chased down Treyvon Martin.

[Cow Poke]

I used to jog 10 miles all the time when I was younger,which is neither here or there,

EGGzackly

but I have often times walked into home construction sites as well because it interested me to see how they were constructed. I was never suspected of anything nefarious or chased down the road by armed men. And I have no idea what time it was or what difference that makes. According to the video it was still daylight, so what difference would the time make.

Yeah, you kinda missed the part about going MULTIPLE times into a construction site AT NIGHT. Have you ever done THAT?

The facts are that these men had no business chasing this person down with guns in hand, and the same goes for the maniac that chased down Treyvon Martin.

The FACT is you keep ignoring facts to support a narrative.

[oxmixmudd]

There were quite a few in here who had views similar to yours. Perhaps you can figure out why they faced less direct hostility than you did? Btw, no one in here that I saw was justifying the man's death. They were just exposing the false narrative surrounding the event. At it IS a false narrative, and for that, you have the audacity to accuse them (including myself) of being racist.

Unfortunately - you are engaging in racial stereotypical behavior likely without realizing it. To me, that does not make a person racist. It makes them a product of a culture that has certain racist elements embedded within it. And being in that culture, immersed in it, we can't help it when we do that unless we know what those elements are and make a conscious effort to avoid them. I pointed out some of what was happening here. But I never accused anyone of actually BEING racist. To me that means the person consciously despises others because of their race and is very different from what I've been talking about in this thread, and is not something I have ever seen evidenced on these pages.

the problem here is that there are a lot of racist sources on this particular event. And many of you are buying into what they are saying. The truth is not quite what is being shown here, at least to the extent of my research on the situation, and what is being said here is riddled with racist assumptions - perhaps derived from those same sources. Am I to be silent about that?

What is coming to light is that there was nothing done illegal on the day in question. He paused during his jog and went inside a house under construction. Maybe he was hot and just wanted to get out of the sun. But the video shows no illegal activity worthy of being pursued. People here are making a huge deal out of that break being 'trespassing'. Well maybe technically, but who hasn't wondered into a house under construction and taken an look around? I have. I'm seeing hosts on various outlets analyzing the case saying they have too.

And he didn't leave because he was 'caught'. He left because he'd finished his break and resumed jogging.

I believe strongly that the reasons it is so easy to believe the narrative some of this was his fault is that underpinned culturally derived racism. Likewise I also believe the reason the focus of this thread has not been on how horrible those men were to chase this fellow down and shoot him but rather what this man might have done that wasn't quite right is that underpinned and culturally derived racism. And I would be remiss and complicit in that same underpinned culturally derived racism if I did not raise the issue and point it out.

[JimL]

EGGzackly

You asked.

Yeah, you kinda missed the part about going MULTIPLE times into a construction site AT NIGHT. Have you ever done THAT?

No, I haven't. Are you suggesting that Arbery went into the construction site multiple times at night?

The FACT is you keep ignoring facts to support a narrative.

No, you seem to be suggesting alternate facts to support a narrative.

[Cow Poke]

No, I haven't. Are you suggesting that Arbery went into the construction site multiple times at night?

See, that's what I mean by you accepting the liberal "first reports from the field" before gathering all the facts. Yes, there are actual reports (and photos/video) of him being at that same place at night on more than one occasion.

No, you seem to be suggesting alternate facts to support a narrative.

But it's obvious you don't have all the facts, Jim - you're just buttkissing the liberal narrative.

(laughing... I guess facts that don't agree with the narrative are now "alternate facts" -- that's a good one)

[seanD]

Unfortunately - you are engaging in racial stereotypical behavior likely without realizing it. To me, that does not make a person racist. It makes them a product of a culture that has certain racist elements embedded within it. And being in that culture, immersed in it, we can't help it when we do that unless we know what those elements are and make a conscious effort to avoid them. I pointed out some of what was happening here. But I never accused anyone of actually BEING racist. To me that means the person consciously despises others because of their race and is very different from what I've been talking about in this thread, and is not something I have ever seen evidenced on these pages.

the problem here is that there are a lot of racist sources on this particular event. And many of you are buying into what they are saying. The truth is not quite what is being shown here, at least to the extent of my research on the situation, and what is being said here is riddled with racist assumptions - perhaps derived from those same sources. Am I to be silent about that?

What is coming to light is that there was nothing done illegal on the day in question. He paused during his jog and went inside a house under construction. Maybe he was hot and just wanted to get out of the sun. But the video shows no illegal activity worthy of being pursued. People here are making a huge deal out of that break being 'trespassing'. Well maybe technically, but who hasn't wondered into a house under construction and taken an look around? I have. I'm seeing hosts on various outlets analyzing the case saying they have too.

And he didn't leave because he was 'caught'. He left because he'd finished his break and resumed jogging.

I believe strongly that the reasons it is so easy to believe the narrative some of this was his fault is that underpinned culturally derived racism. Likewise I also believe the reason the focus of this thread has not been on how horrible those men were to chase this fellow down and shoot him but rather what this man might have done that wasn't quite right is that underpinned and culturally derived racism. And I would be remiss and complicit in that same underpinned culturally derived racism if I did not raise the issue and point it out.

But none of us here pushing "racist assumptions" are racist Ox says. I'll just leave it at that.

[oxmixmudd]

But none of us here pushing "racist assumptions" are racist Ox says. I'll just leave it at that.

If you think that is contradictory, then you don't understand how a culture's racist underpinnings can influence a persons thoughts even though they themselves are not consciously hostile to people on account of their race.

As I said: The evidence is in the fact that the focus here in this thread is on what Arbery might have done wrong, as opposed to what the two white guys did wrong.

Try to put your hostility toward me aside for just a moment and ask why that is the primary focus of this thread, and why most if not all the sources used tend to focus on that, rather than on the laws that were broken by those men illegally pursuing an armed citizens arrest of a person who had not committed any crime worthy of such action?


So while Arbery might be technically guilty of a misdemeaner tresspass for his short break in the house under construction, these men are guilty of Felonies wrt his shooting, and as I understand it, they also had no actual grounds for the 'citizens arrest' they are claiming as justification for what they did. Yet the focus HERE is on what Arbery MIGHT have done wrong.

Are you starting to see the problem yet?

[Mountain Man]

He is already jogging along when we first see him, and he is WAY to far away to think he was actually 'going after' them. They are there stopped. He is jogging, He then slows a bit and tries to go around - they are in the middle of the road. THEY pull the gun, he tries to stop them from gunning him down. He is pushing the gun away, not attacking the man. THEY fire.

That is what that video shows. There is nothing in that video that even hints Arbery is doing anything wrong. From what I can tell, you've been sucked into the racist rhetoric trying to justify this.

Having watched it I am now absolutely convinced this is a racially motivated shooting with no justification of any sort. And these men need to spend the rest of their lives in jail.

*He is on the LEFT side of the road, as you are supposed to be when JOGGING - facing traffic. If he were cycling, he would have been on the right side. Everything in his body position while running is that of a person jogging. Nothing aggressive at all. The hesitation seen as he comes up on the truck is just standard for any runner coming up on a stopped vehicle. "Which way do I go to get a round". Then they are yelling. He panics. They have guns. If he runs, they shoot him in the back. What can he do.

I'm a cyclist, I've been in situations with angered drivers stopped in the road. What do I do - what is he going to do. I see that same thing in Arbery as he reacts to them confronting him as he approaches. IF you guys have seen this video and are still carrying on like you are ... God help us all.

I'm not sure what video you're watching, but your description is not entirely accurate.

Here's the clearest video I can find:

Yes, it starts with Arbery running down the left side of the road, so you got at least that much right. The white pickup is parked in the right lane about 30-feet ahead of Arbery. One man is standing in the bed of the pickup, another man is standing on the ground near the open driver-side door. Unless Arbery was blind, he should have been able to clearly see both men. It does not appear that the man on the ground was pointing the shotgun at Arbery, and the man standing in the bed of the pickup had not drawn his weapon, so your claim that they pulled their guns on Arbery is not consistent with the video. Arbery doesn't hesitate, like you claim. If anything, he picks up his pace, crosses the road, runs around the right side of the pickup, and then immediately attacks the man on the ground. When the struggle starts, Arbery is not pushing the barrel of the shotgun away. Rather, he is actively trying to grab it and wrestle it away from the man while punching him in the head. It's at this point that the man standing in the pickup draws his sidearm. Arbery and the man with the shotgun struggle for roughly ten-seconds before the gun goes off. It is impossible to discern from the video if it was deliberate or simply an accident caused by the struggle.

Now we can debate about whether or not the men should have been armed, or whether or not they should have confronted Arbery all day, but that doesn't change the fact that Arbery appears to have made a conscious decision to attack a man who was clearly armed with a shotgun. Based on the video, it's hard to argue that he was caught off guard and reacting on instinct, because it took him at least ten seconds to close the distance between himself and the man holding the shotgun after it became clear that they were waiting for him.

And before you lie about my motives again, let me be clear: I am not saying that the shooting was in anyway justified!

[Mountain Man]

This is yet another reason why I doubt Ox is a Christian. How can an individual supposedly filled with the spirit of truth, be so fervent in their embrace of lies and falsehoods?

I wouldn't go that far. I don't doubt that ox is a Christian, I just think he is a very misguided one.

[Cow Poke]

And before you lie about my motives again, let me be clear: I am not saying that the shooting was in anyway justified!

So, just to be clear, MM, are you saying that the shooting was somehow justified?

[oxmixmudd]

I'm not sure what video you're watching, but your description is not entirely accurate.

Here's the clearest video I can find:

Yes, it starts with Arbery running down the left side of the road, so you got at least that much right. The white pickup is parked in the right lane about 30-feet ahead of Arbery.
One man is standing in the bed of the pickup, another man is standing on the ground near the open driver-side door. Unless Arbery was blind, he should have been able to clearly see both men. It does not appear that the man on the ground was pointing the shotgun at Arbery, and the man standing in the bed of the pickup had not drawn his weapon, so your claim that they pulled their guns on Arbery is not consistent with the video.

I said "THEY pulled the gun". the gun. THEY is simply treating all their activity as one activity. So no intent to misrepresent what happened, just not incredibly precise language. Yes, the only one with the gun drawn as Arbery approaches appears to be the fellow on the ground.

Arbery doesn't hesitate, like you claim. If anything, he picks up his pace,

No - he actual saunters for a step or two, trying to decide what to do. His right leg swings out, a relaxing of the gait. His posture become more upright - he slows a bit trying to figure out what they are doing. A good bit of his approach is lost as the cell video points away, we only see the last bit of his approach, bit what we see is his hesitation before he choose to go around the truck on the right.

crosses the road, runs around the right side of the pickup, and then immediately attacks the man on the ground.

He immediately tries to stop the man on the ground from using his gun on him ... again, two men, aggressively blocking the road, one armed, the other standing in the pickup with a gun, he has three choices. Turn around and run away as fast as he can and hope they don't shoot him in the back, stop and let them do whatever they were planning to do to him, or get the gun away from the guy. He chose the more agressive move. Again, life and death situation, fight or flight.

When the struggle starts, Arbery is not pushing the barrel of the shotgun away. Rather, he is actively trying to grab it and wrestle it away from the man while punching him in the head.

Wrong - the initial move is not visible, it happens out of view, but Arbery is going after the gun and or the fellow with the gun, but we can see them emerge on the left side and Arbery is pushing on the gun and the man is retreating. The first visible punch comes AFTER the first audible shot. Arbery is now fighting for his life.

It's at this point that the man standing in the pickup draws his sidearm.

Well yeah, at this point Arbery is fighting for his life, Arbery may be wounded, but the fellow with the gun is his son, so he's going to try to make sure his son survives, that Arbery does not succeed in disarming him and then who knows what. Its bad, but they started it by presenting themselves with a gun drawn and blocking his progress. This is ALL on them. Arbery is just trying to survive.

Arbery and the man with the shotgun struggle for roughly ten-seconds before the gun goes off.

THE SECOND TIME!!!!! Again, Arbery is fighting for his life!

It is impossible to discern from the video if it was deliberate or simply an accident caused by the struggle.

Well yeah, they are off camera. But Arbery is fighting for his life. And these fellows are the aggressors. You can't block a road with a gun drawn and call yourself 'the victim' if the fellow you are trying to subdue tries to avoid being subdued by you.

Now we can debate about whether or not the men should have been armed, or whether or not they should have confronted Arbery all day, but that doesn't change the fact that Arbery appears to have made a conscious decision to attack a man who was clearly armed with a shotgun.

fight or flight. Yeah, Arbery wanted to live - can you blame him? The audacity of a single black guy facing two white guys with guns intent on subduing him in some way to actually want to live! How horrible of him!

These guys were threatening him with deadly force. All we can tell from this so far is that Arbery is not the sort to lie down and let someone kill him without a fight.

Based on the video, it's hard to argue that he was caught off guard and reacting on instinct, because it took him at least ten seconds to close the distance between himself and the man holding the shotgun after it became clear that they were waiting for him.

And before you lie about my motives again, let me be clear: I am not saying that the shooting was in anyway justified!

----

I have never lied about your motives. And I'm tired of you accusing me of lying - I haven't lied one time that you have accused me of lying the last few days. Next time I WILL report each of the last 3 instance. You can't just run around accusing people of lying all the time just because you don't like what they have to say!

----

"AFTER IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THEY WERE WAITING FOR HIM"

and with a gun. Yeah, he didn't want to die without at least trying to live. He should be commended for not just lying down and letting them shoot him.

[Mountain Man]

I said "THEY pulled the gun". the gun. THEY is simply treating all their activity as one activity. So no intent to misrepresent what happened, just not incredibly precise language. Yes, the only one with the gun drawn as Arbery approaches appears to be the fellow on the ground.




No - he actual saunters for a step or two, trying to decide what to do. His right leg swings out, a relaxing of the gait. His posture become more upright - he slows a bit trying to figure out what they are doing. A good bit of his approach is lost as the cell video points away, we only see the last bit of his approach, bit what we see is his hesitation before he choose to go around the truck on the right.



He immediately tries to stop the man on the ground from using his gun on him ... again, two men, aggressively blocking the road, one armed, the other standing in the pickup with a gun, he has three choices. Turn around and run away as fast as he can and hope they don't shoot him in the back, stop and let them do whatever they were planning to do to him, or get the gun away from the guy. He chose the more agressive move. Again, life and death situation, fight or flight.



Wrong - the initial move is not visible, it happens out of view, but Arbery is going after the gun and or the fellow with the gun, but we can see them emerge on the left side and Arbery is pushing on the gun and the man is retreating. The first visible punch comes AFTER the first audible shot. Arbery is now fighting for his life.



Well yeah, at this point Arbery is fighting for his life, Arbery may be wounded, but the fellow with the gun is his son, so he's going to try to make sure his son survives, that Arbery does not succeed in disarming him and then who knows what. Its bad, but they started it by presenting themselves with a gun drawn and blocking his progress. This is ALL on them. Arbery is just trying to survive.



THE SECOND TIME!!!!! Again, Arbery is fighting for his life!



Well yeah, they are off camera. But Arbery is fighting for his life. And these fellows are the aggressors. You can't block a road with a gun drawn and call yourself 'the victim' if the fellow you are trying to subdue tries to avoid being subdued by you.



fight or flight. Yeah, Arbery wanted to live - can you blame him? The audacity of a single black guy facing two white guys with guns intent on subduing him in some way to actually want to live! How horrible of him!

These guys were threatening him with deadly force. All we can tell from this so far is that Arbery is not the sort to lie down and let someone kill him without a fight.



----

I have never lied about your motives. And I'm tired of you accusing me of lying - I haven't lied one time that you have accused me of lying the last few days. Next time I WILL report each of the last 3 instance. You can't just run around accusing people of lying all the time just because you don't like what they have to say!

----

"AFTER IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THEY WERE WAITING FOR HIM"

and with a gun. Yeah, he didn't want to die without at least trying to live. He should be commended for not just lying down and letting them shoot him.

The problem here is that you're not just watching the video, you're trying to interpret what you're seeing and putting thoughts into people's heads and then assuming that's what actually happened. We don't know what anybody was thinking, but we do know that Arbery had 10-seconds at the very least to consider his course of action. Attacking an armed man was not his first or only available option.

As for the accusation of lying, I stand by it. In post #20, I plainly stated that "I'm not saying he deserved to be shot, or that the guys were necessarily right to approach him while armed, or any nonsense like [that]..." Despite this clear disclaimer, in post #22, you accused me of trying to justify the shooting without any attempt to support your accusation. In post #25, I responded by plainly stating again that I was not attempting to justify the shooting. In post #35, you again accused me of attempting to justify the shooting despite my earlier clear statements to the contrary. Post #37 was the first time I called you out for lying. I don't know what else to call it when someone is corrected multiple times but persists in saying what they know is untrue. The least you could do at this point is apologize for your original false accusation.

[JimL]

The problem here is that you're not just watching the video, you're trying to interpret what you're seeing and putting thoughts into people's heads and then assuming that's what actually happened. We don't know what anybody was thinking, but we do know that Arbery had 10-seconds at the very least to consider his course of action. Attacking an armed man was not his first or only available option.

As for the accusation of lying, I stand by it. In post #20, I plainly stated that "I'm not saying he deserved to be shot, or that the guys were necessarily right to approach him while armed, or any nonsense like [that]..." Despite this clear disclaimer, in post #22, you accused me of trying to justify the shooting without any attempt to support your accusation. In post #25, I responded by plainly stating again that I was not attempting to justify the shooting. In post #35, you again accused me of attempting to justify the shooting despite my earlier clear statements to the contrary. Post #37 was the first time I called you out for lying. I don't know what else to call it when someone is corrected multiple times but persists in saying what they know is untrue. The least you could do at this point is apologize for your original false accusation.

Doesn't matter if you say you are not trying to justify the shooting, when you have clearly been trying to justify the shooting.