Originally posted by Whateverman
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Originally posted by seanD View PostOriginally posted by Whateverman View PostThere's a video clip I've seen a few times over the last two days of someone talking about Floyd's death. In it, this person says the police let Floyd out (of the car? Van?), which is when he attacked them. Presumably, he still would have been cuffed, so I agree that he could easily have been brought under control without killing him.
But if the attack happened, then meth becomes more relevant. Not enough to justify him getting killed, but enough so that dismissing that evidence would be unjust.- I literally get no news/information from social media; the hypothesis I'm referring to (ie. officers were attacked) came directly from a short 5-10 second clip in a commercial running on CNN. So, whatever your beef is with my quote, nothing in it is indicative of social media disinformation.
- It's more than a little funny that you cited information from social media in order to combat disinformation from social media (as you saw it)
- I never said I believed the story about the attack (you seem to have missed the word IF in my quote). I only hypothesized that if it was true, then the meth evidence would have been more relevant
Do I trust the video you posted? It seems dispassionate, well-reasoned and somewhat factual. I don't distrust it - but neither do I accept what it presents as unassailable fact. I'm simply going to file the information away without automatically concluding that it presents either truth or falsehood.
Is the meth evidence relevant? I don't think it's irrelevant (which was the claim I originally took issue with), but I've said several times that it doesn't justify Floyd's death.
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Originally posted by Whateverman View Post- I literally get no news/information from social media; the hypothesis I'm referring to (ie. officers were attacked) came directly from a short 5-10 second clip in a commercial running on CNN. So, whatever your beef is with my quote, nothing in it is indicative of social media disinformation.
- It's more than a little funny that you cited information from social media in order to combat disinformation from social media (as you saw it)
- I never said I believed the story about the attack (you seem to have missed the word IF in my quote). I only hypothesized that if it was true, then the meth evidence would have been more relevant
Do I trust the video you posted? It seems dispassionate, well-reasoned and somewhat factual. I don't distrust it - but neither do I accept what it presents as unassailable fact. I'm simply going to file the information away without automatically concluding that it presents either truth or falsehood.
Is the meth evidence relevant? I don't think it's irrelevant (which was the claim I originally took issue with), but I've said several times that it doesn't justify Floyd's death.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostYou just said there was a video of "this person" claiming they let Floyd out of the vehicle and he attacked them. The video I posted clearly dispels that claim because it looks at all the surveillance footage. Floyd is already cuffed and in the back seat of the cop car. They're struggling with Floyd inside, though we don't know why they're struggling, before Chauvin then drags him out for some reason, and that's when they have him the position before he dies.
I was pretty careful to not make any claims as to what actually happened. So, while your video counts as somewhat credible information, it's largely irrelevant to what I said.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSorry max, the pattern in these two cases is to focus on what was wrong with the victim. It has nothing to do with 'the facts'. In Floyd's case there is nothing that could possibly be relevant. We have tapes showing that whatever was in his system, he did nothing significant or violent, and no one would survive being unable to breath for 8 minutes regardless their health. In Arbery's case, IF he had stolen something it might matter, but he didn't. The continuous focus on the victim rather than those committing the crimes tells the real story here. Where are the threads on the 18 past grievences against Floyd's killer? The equal amount of focus and disgust at his aggressive use of an unsanctioned restraining move. Where are the endless speculations about the motives of those chasing down Arbery or post after post expressing disgust at their excess as they chased him, even hit him with their truck.
No max, this is all about making the case these black victims deserve less of our compassion than it appears they should."Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Originally posted by Whateverman View PostThat's nice, but it had nothing to do with you combating disinformation from social media.
I was pretty careful to not make any claims as to what actually happened. So, while your video counts as somewhat credible information, it's largely irrelevant to what I said.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by seanD View PostBut you were arguing a hypothetical about meth and its effects based on a situation that wasn't true.
Originally posted by seanD View PostWouldn't you want to argue a hypothetical based on a situation that was accurate in the details?
I took issue with your glib indictment of my hypothesis as social media disinformation. I still do, though I'm not annoyed that much any more. I still haven't seen anything which invalidates the hypothesis about the relevance of the blood toxicology. AND it's just a hypothesis, for the sake of discussion; you overreacted to it.
You're welcome to question/criticize anything and everything I write here, but for future reference, please note that I try to be precise about what I write/post, and will admit when I misspoke. I did not do that here.Last edited by Whateverman; 06-06-2020, 01:08 PM.
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Originally posted by Whateverman View PostTechnically, we don't know this yet. At somewhere close to the 4 minute mark in the video, it jumps from two or more officers trying to wrestle Floyd in/out of the police SUV to 3 officers kneeling on him. Yes, the audio doesn't talk about an attack taking place, and I admit your video suggests it didn't - but not persuasively enough for me to conclude that in-fact no attack took place.
Yes I would. I see nothing in this video which contradicts an alleged attack taking place - but I do admit that most of the video is consistent with Floyd merely resisting the officers, rather than attacking them.
I took issue with your glib indictment of my hypothesis as social media disinformation. I still do, though I'm not annoyed that much any more. I still haven't seen anything which invalidates the hypothesis about the relevance of the blood toxicology. AND it's just a hypothesis, for the sake of discussion; you overreacted to it.
You're welcome to question/criticize anything and everything I write here, but for future reference, please note that I try to be precise about what I write/post, and will admit when I misspoke. I did not do that here.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostEGGzackly -- but that's the kind of talk that drives our local fringe extremist liberals nuts --- you're DEFENDING THE MURDERER... You're BLAMING THE VICTIM!!!
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe real problem is the pattern.
Just like with arbery, you and others seek out what may have been wrong with the victim and focus on that when given the circumstances it just doesn't matter.
The sad truth is, in both cases it matters because they were black. They are dead. They were killed unjustly, without cause or justifiable provocation. In such cases, whatever their weak moments had been, we typically do not turn our focus on them, out of respect for what they suffered, out of disdain for what was done to them.
At least, that is what is normal if the victim is white.
I seek out ALL the facts, and allow them to lead where they lead, and in NEITHER of these cases have I blamed the victim or excused the killer.
IF these cases DO go to court, nobody is going to say, "well, gosh folks, we need to respect the victim, so we can't allow ANY testimony that in ANY way tarnishes the angelic reputation of the victim...."
Are you one of the nutters who looks at the mural of George Floyd as an ANGEL, complete with wings and a halo, and deeply sighs, and says, "yes, he's right up there with Mother Teresa....". I have ABSOLUTELY condemned his murder, AND called for the other three to be called to account, AND stated that I believed the Police Chief should be fired as well, because WHOEVER Floyd was and WHATEVER he did cannot -- in my WILDEST IMAGINATION -- justify his murder.
I'm going back to trying to decline to respond to your extremely one-sided can't-stand-the-truth I'm-so-virtuous-and-you-guys-are-racist - rants, Jim.
I'm really tired of your crap. Get help.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI thought the idea that the officers let Floyd out of the vehicle and he attacked them vs. they're struggling with Floyd inside the vehicle, and then drag him out to the ground was a contradiction worth labeling disinfo.
I wont drag this out further. You can have the last word if you wish.Last edited by Whateverman; 06-06-2020, 02:37 PM.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostWhatever race, ethnicity or whatever, we should ALWAYS look at ALL the facts of the case before coming to a judgment as to how the incident came about, and who is responsible. If new facts come to light, we should be ready to revise our judgment, if need be, in the light of them. We are looking for the truth, no matter how uncomfortable for us it may be, right?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Whateverman View PostI'm not sure I agree; meth can obviously make some people act recklessly.
Of course, while I haven't seen all of it, the video footage I have seen shows Floyd as docile. There may be testimony or additional footage which shows otherwise, but right now, the meth evidence doesn't seem very persuasive (as a potential defense for the police).The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostYou are always trying to make a complex situation into a simple open and shut case, where one side is completely at fault, and the other is completely innocent. Real life is seldom that simple, and we can only determine that if we look at all the facts. Which you are determined not to do, since you 'already know' who is right, and who is wrong, just by the colour of their skin. THAT is racist.
I had a really good teacher, who had hammered into me....
A) NEVER assume you know all the facts
2) ALWAYS assume that the other side has something you know nothing about
3) ALWAYS do "opposition research" on your OWN client to make sure he's not hiding something, or there's something of which he is unaware that the other side will discover
D) People lie - always check out what they say - especially your own client - to make sure you can defend it in court
5) Investigate your own client just as thoroughly as the other side will, so there are no surprises
F) After you are sure that you have gathered ALL the facts, go to A)
One of the best feelings in the world is when the other side 'springs a surprise' in court, and you're able to say, 'your honor, we'd like to enter exhibit H which details....', and show that, not only did you already know about it, you were able to successfully explain, disqualify, defeat or whatever.
It AMAZES me that the extremist left nutters want to slam their eyes shut and declare "THAT DOESN'T MATTER" or "THAT IS IRRELEVANT". Why be so afraid of the TRUTH?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAs prophesied, and it didn't take long....
Yes, you definitely have a pattern.
Your accusation that I "seek out what may have been wrong with the victim and focus on that" is just more of your.... I'd call it a lie, but I think you're so screwed up in the head that you don't even know you're doing it.
I seek out ALL the facts, and allow them to lead where they lead, and in NEITHER of these cases have I blamed the victim or excused the killer.
IF these cases DO go to court, nobody is going to say, "well, gosh folks, we need to respect the victim, so we can't allow ANY testimony that in ANY way tarnishes the angelic reputation of the victim...."
Are you one of the nutters who looks at the mural of George Floyd as an ANGEL, complete with wings and a halo, and deeply sighs, and says, "yes, he's right up there with Mother Teresa....". I have ABSOLUTELY condemned his murder, AND called for the other three to be called to account, AND stated that I believed the Police Chief should be fired as well, because WHOEVER Floyd was and WHATEVER he did cannot -- in my WILDEST IMAGINATION -- justify his murder.
I'm going back to trying to decline to respond to your extremely one-sided can't-stand-the-truth I'm-so-virtuous-and-you-guys-are-racist - rants, Jim.
I'm really tired of your crap. Get help.
This is the reality I have observed. And it speaks much louder than any claimed objectivity or pretense of 'waiting for the facts'.
It is what it is. You cant change it. It's already done and there for all to see. But it speaks loud and clear to the bias and the unspoken racist elements driving the discussion.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-06-2020, 07:33 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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