Free will.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, just because there are possible outcomes doesn't mean that each actual choice is not fully determined. JimL understands that, and he doesn't have my agenda. Again Shuny, if my actual choice is determined, where does free will come in? In what way am I free if the "laws of nature" determine my choices?

It doesn't mean!?!?!!? nonsense! It fact of reality is that given any given point in time t there is obviously more than one possible choice of human decisions, and in nature more than one outcome in any given sequence of events. Your actual range of choices is determined, and not your only choice is determined.

It is not advisable for you to speak for JimL. I would like him to respond if he disagrees.

[seer]

It doesn't mean!?!?!!? nonsense! It fact of reality is that given any given point in time t there is obviously more than one choice and in nature more than one outcome in any given sequence of events.

In post #56 you said:

Determinism is that nothing involving the chains of events in nature nor the decisions of human will may violate the laws of nature. Natural Laws fixes the outcomes of all possible chains of natural events and the choices of human will.

If natural laws FIX all outcomes and human choices then where in this picture does free will come in? Where is there any freedom?

It is not advisable for you to speak for JimL. I would like him to respond if he disagrees.

He already did in post #70

The existence of possible choices 'determined by natural law', and our ability to freely choose either of them, are two different things Shunya. Unless we are free to choose, then it doesn't matter how many possible choices exist 'determined by natural law.'

[shunyadragon]

In post #56 you said:

Determinism is that nothing involving the chains of events in nature nor the decisions of human will may violate the laws of nature. Natural Laws fixes the outcomes of all possible chains of natural events and the choices of human will.

True, but natural laws do not limit human choices to only one possible choice.

If natural laws FIX all outcomes and human choices then where in this picture does free will come in? Where is there any freedom?

It doesn't mean!?!?!!? nonsense! It fact of reality is that given any given point in time t there is obviously more than one choice and in nature more than one outcome in any given sequence of events.

Are you proposing that human choices can be made that are against the laws of nature?

I will respond to this post #70 separately.

[shunyadragon]

The existence of possible choices 'determined by natural law', and our ability to freely choose either of them, are two different things Shunya. Unless we are free to choose, then it doesn't matter how many possible choices exist 'determined by natural law.'

JimL this is very very confusing. What is wrong with the ability make different possible choices, 'potential free will.' within the limits of natural law. Are you saying that humans can make alternative choices in any given point in time t against the laws of nature?

The laws of nature only limit the possible range of human choices. The laws of nature do not limit the possible choices to only one choice.

Please clarify?!?!?!

[seer]

True, but natural laws do not limit human choices to only one possible choice.

But the choice, no matter what it is, is nevertheless fixed and determined - as you said.

It doesn't mean!?!?!!? nonsense! It fact of reality is that given any given point in time t there is obviously more than one choice and in nature more than one outcome in any given sequence of events.

Right but again, no matter the choice it is still fixed and determined. So I will ask for the tenth time - where is the free will in this picture Shuny, what is free?

Are you proposing that human choices can be made that are against the laws of nature?

Of course, since both our religions teach that we have a soul, and that immaterial soul can influence the process.

The Human Soul

entirely out of the order of the physical creation
We are able to reflect divine attributes to the extent that we cleanse the mirrors of our hearts and minds through prayer, the study and application of the Sacred Scriptures, the acquisition of knowledge, efforts to improve our conduct and to overcome tests and difficulties, and service to humanity.

When death occurs in this world, the soul is separated from the body, and continues to progress in an eternal journey towards perfection.

http://www.bahai.org/beliefs/life-spirit/human-soul/

[shunyadragon]

But the choice, no matter what it is, is nevertheless fixed and determined - as you said.

Right but again, no matter the choice it is still fixed and determined. So I will ask for the tenth time - where is the free will in this picture Shuny, what is free?

For the thousandth time it is the range of possible range of choices in any given point time t limited by natural law that represents the possibility of free will.

Of course, since both our religions teach that we have a soul, and that immaterial soul can influence the process.

Does not concern what our religions teach. Again . . .

This is a question of the possible chojcws by humans at any given time t in the real physical world we live in.

Are you proposing that human choices can be made that are against the laws of nature?

[seer]

For the thousandth time it is the range of possible range of choices in any given point time t limited by natural law that represents the possibility of free will.

How is that free, in any sense, if all our choices are determined and fixed by the laws of nature like you said? How am I free if the laws of nature determine all my choices? How exactly is free will possible. You are not making sense.

Does not concern what our religions teach. Again . . .

Of course it does. If we have an immaterial soul which can effect outcomes then we are not slaves to the laws of nature.

Are you proposing that human choices can be made that are against the laws of nature?

Yes, of course, as your religion teaches.

[shunyadragon]

How is that free, in any sense, if all our choices are determined and fixed by the laws of nature like you said? How am I free if the laws of nature determine all my choices? How exactly is free will possible. You are not making sense.

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Of course it does. If we have an immaterial soul which can effect outcomes then we are not slaves to the laws of nature.

Yes, of course, as your religion teaches.

The nature of the immaterial soul is not an issue here. You are changing the subject to avoid answering the obvious question concerning the limits of the potential of free will in human decision making processes in the real world. The question is the nature of human will in the real physical world.

No it does not teach that concerning free will. It teaches we have free will except for that which is determined by laws of nature.

You tend to switch back and form whether your religious beliefs are an influence on your reasons to believe as you do concerning the nature of human will in the real world.

[seer]

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Shuny, in post #56 you said that all outcomes, including human choices, were both determined and fixed. So where, exactly, is the potential for free will. What do mean by free will?

The nature of the immaterial soul is not an issue here. You are changing the subject to avoid answering the obvious question concerning the limits of the potential of free will in human decision making processes in the real world. The question is the nature of human will in the real physical world.

Yes Shuny, it is very much an issue since I am not a materialist, and neither are you. So I am not limited to answering such question from a naturalistic point of view, you are trying to force me into a philosophical naturalism. And according to your own faith the immaterial soul has an effect or influence on both our thoughts and behavior. And that is human nature in the physical world - except the physical is not the only consideration in this story.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, in post #56 you said that all outcomes, including human choices, were both determined and fixed. So where, exactly, is the potential for free will. What do mean by free will?

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Yes Shuny, it is very much an issue since I am not a materialist, and neither are you. So I am not limited to answering such question from a naturalistic point of view, you are trying to force me into a philosophical naturalism. And according to your own faith the immaterial soul has an effect or influence on both our thoughts and behavior. And that is human nature in the physical world - except the physical is not the only consideration in this story.

Then you switching back and your religious world view does determine your agenda, which you previously denied.

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

[seer]

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Again, if all our choices are fixed and determined what can possibly be free about our choices. What do you mean by free.

Then you switching back and your religious world view does determine your agenda, which you previously denied.

Shuny, you can't expect me to accept philosophical naturalism - do you accept philosophical naturalism? And where did I say that I didn't have an agenda? We all have agendas and worldviews Shuny - including you.

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

But you said the laws of nature determine and fix all our choices - so free will is not a possibility if we are not free from the laws of nature.

[shunyadragon]

Again, if all our choices are fixed and determined what can possibly be free about our choices. What do you mean by free.

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Shuny, you can't expect me to accept philosophical naturalism - do you accept philosophical naturalism?

No. This is the issue of the nature of human will in the real physical world we make our decisions.

And where did I say that I didn't have an agenda?

post #36

Shuny, why did you bring God into the picture. You still have not answered my question. I gave you a clear definition of LFW - your last quotes are not offering a definition. So again, do you have a definition of free will, if not how can you assert this: Third the alternative of Compatibilism provides an adequate alternative of the possibility of free will within a deterministic world.

How can you even claim this if you have no idea how to define free will?

But you said the laws of nature determine and fix all our choices - so free will is not a possibility if we are not free from the laws of nature.

It is the range of choices and does not limit human will to just one choice,

[seer]

No. This is the issue of the nature of human will in the real physical world we make our decisions.

But our souls do have an influence in the real physical world, as your religion teaches. If you don't accept philosophical naturalism then you should not have a logical problem with that

post #36

What are you talking about? I was asking why you brought God into the picture. That had nothing to do with whether I had an agenda or not.

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

It is the range of choices and does not limit human will to just one choice.

Then give me an example of a free will choice if all our choices are determined and fixed. How is that possible?

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, in post #56 you said that all outcomes, including human choices, were both determined and fixed. So where, exactly, is the potential for free will. What do mean by free will?

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Yes Shuny, it is very much an issue since I am not a materialist, and neither are you. So I am not limited to answering such question from a naturalistic point of view, you are trying to force me into a philosophical naturalism. And according to your own faith the immaterial soul has an effect or influence on both our thoughts and behavior. And that is human nature in the physical world - except the physical is not the only consideration in this story.

No, it is not a matter of whether you believe in philosophical naturalism or not, because it is matter of whether you accept the science of the the natural laws of our physical existence as the reality of the nature of the physical reality as it is regardless of differences of opinions and religious belief. It is generally accepted that you do not accept science as the objective nature of the evidence of the nature of our physical existence regardless of your beliefs.

No, in terms of the free will actions within the reality of our physical existence, because we are talking about the reality of the consideration of natural law whether 'determined' by God, or simply determined by the natural nature of our physical existence without God. Based on the implication of this train of reasoning of the past and your present posts you reject the science of Methodological Naturalism based on the objective evidence that results on the natural laws determined by these objective evidence/ God is not a trickster, because the objective evidence reflects God's attributes of the nature of Creation of our universe.

In the over all reality of the nature of our spiritual existence that is another consideration except the problem of your belief in Arminianism where everything is 'determined' absolutely by God's will regardless of whether we have free will or not.

[seer]

Your not free of the laws of nature in your very human decisions in your life in the physical world. The potential range of free will decision making process remains fixed within the limits of the laws of nature.

Shuny you keep repeating your self with out answering the question. You said that all outcomes, including "human choices" were fixed and determined. Where does free will come in, even the potential of free will? How can anything we do be free if all our choices are fixed and determined by the laws of nature. You are contradicting yourself - again....

No, it is not a matter of whether you believe in philosophical naturalism or not, because it is matter of whether you accept the science of the the natural laws of our physical existence as the reality of the nature of the physical reality as it is regardless of differences of opinions and religious belief. It is generally accepted that you do not accept science as the objective nature of the evidence of the nature of our physical existence regardless of your beliefs.

And you too dismiss science when it suits your religion - do you want to over the Adam thing again?
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post434013

So don't be a hypocrite.

No, in terms of the free will actions within the reality of our physical existence, because we are talking about the reality of the consideration of natural law whether 'determined' by God, or simply determined by the natural nature of our physical existence without God. Based on the implication of this train of reasoning of the past and your present posts you reject the science of Methodological Naturalism based on the objective evidence that results on the natural laws determined by these objective evidence/ God is not a trickster, because the objective evidence reflects God's attributes of the nature of Creation of our universe.

You are not making sense, you are still trying to force me into philosophical naturalism on this question. That it is somehow wrong to bring the soul and its influence on the human will into the question. When both our religions teach that it does. That the soul has a real influence on our thoughts and actions.

In the over all reality of the nature of our spiritual existence that is another consideration except the problem of your belief in Arminianism where everything is 'determined' absolutely by God's will regardless of whether we have free will or not.

What are you taking about? That sounds like Calvinism not Arminianism.