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Trump's Trade Deals...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    And the goal, of course, is that products "Proudly Made in the USA" will have a lower price tag and therefore be more attractive to consumers which will drive sales and US manufacturing.
    You guys have a chronic tendency to argue points not being made. I said nothing about agreeing or disagreeing - if you think so, please point to the post. I said nothing about the effect being other than raising the prices of goods. So you are both busily erecting strawmen - which is pretty common around here - and then knocking them down. How about sticking with what I actually said.

    Trump is wrong about who is paying the tariff. He is either ignorant about it, or he is repeating a lie over and over. THAT is my statement. Adding to it and making claims I said other things doesn't change that.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-12-2019, 08:32 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      The point: that U.S. companies are paying the tax directly to the Treasury - not the Chinese. That is the lie Trump continually repeats - presumably because he knows at least some part of his base will accept it as true. That is one of his "art of the deal" techniques: repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth for a significant part of the listening audience.

      And when the good cannot be secured elsewhere - or the good is still less expensive even WITH the tariff, the result is little/no impact on the manufacturer and higher costs to the consumer.
      And so you are in the do nothing camp, because nothing else we tried so far has worked.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        And so you are in the do nothing camp, because nothing else we tried so far has worked.
        Nice try, Seer, bit still a sidetrack to what I said. I have said nothing about what we should or should not do. I have said nothing about right/wrong approach.

        My statement: Trump is either ignorant about how import tariffs work or he is chronically lying about how they work. Neither is a good thing in a president, IMO.

        Every response, so far, has ignored that statement and gone off on tangents. Responding to things I have NOT said is not useful, and suggests that you have no response to what I have actually said.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Trump is wrong about who is paying the tariff. He is either ignorant about it, or he is repeating a lie over and over.
          We're going to need more than your say-so.

          In other words, let's see you lay out Trump's entire economic plan and trade policy, what deals he has reached with who, who is paying what and to whom, etc. So far you've done little more than stamp your feet and shout "Nuh-uh!"
          Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-12-2019, 09:16 AM.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            We're going to need more than your say-so.
            My say so?

            You mean I have to prove to you who pays an import tariff? I have to assume you don't know how import tariffs work either.

            A tariff is a tax on imported goods. Despite what the President says, it is almost always paid directly by the importer (usually a domestic firm), and never by the exporting country. Thus, if the US imposes a tariff on Chinese televisions, the duty is paid to the US Customs and Border Protection Service at the border by a US broker representing a US importer, say, Costco.

            source


            Goods may be imported to the United States subject to import restrictions. Importers of goods may be subject to tax (“customs duty” or “tariff”) on the imported value of the goods. “Imported goods are not legally entered until after the shipment has arrived within the port of entry, delivery of the merchandise has been authorized by CBP, and estimated duties have been paid.”[1] Importation and declaration and payment of customs duties is done by the importer of record, which may be the owner of the goods, the purchaser, or a licensed customs broker. Goods may be stored in a bonded warehouse or a Foreign-Trade Zone in the United States for up to five years without payment of duties.

            source


            A tariff is a tax on imported goods. Despite what the president says, it is almost always paid directly by the importer (usually a domestic firm), and never by the exporting country. Thus, if the U.S. imposes a tariff on Chinese televisions, the duty is paid to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Service at the border by a U.S. broker representing a U.S. importer, say, Costco.

            source


            This is pretty basic stuff. I'm a little surprised this observation is getting anything other than a nod and an "I know."

            Import tariffs are paid by importers. They are not paid by the manufacturer unless the manufacturer is the importer of record. In the U.S., the biggest importers are U.S. retail companies and manufacturers. These are all demonstrable facts. If you disagree, tell me which of those statements is not true. If they are true, then Trump's statements about China paying to the U.S. Treasury are false. He either is ignorant of the fact, or he is (again) lying repeatedly. Neither is very good for a sitting president.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            In other words, let's see you lay out Trump's entire economic plan and trade policy, what deals he has reached with who, who is paying what and to whom, etc. So far you've done little more than stamp your feet and shout "Nuh-uh!"
            Why on earth do I need to do ANY of that to support the statement "Trump either does not know how import tariff's work, or is lying about them." All I need to show is how an import tariff works. The tariffs are NOT being paid by China. That statement, on his part, is false. So he's either ignorant about it - or he's intentionally lying. I have made no statements about his policies, my agreement/disagreement, or whether they will succeed. This is a sidetrack you and Seer apparently want to keep dragging me into.

            Clear statement: "Trump is either ignorant of how import tariffs work, or he is repeatedly lying about them."

            That is what I have said. That is ALL I have said. I'm not going to defend things I didn't say or positions I do not hold.
            Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-12-2019, 10:17 AM.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #21
              No, you should prove your assertion that Trump is either ignorant or lying about economic matters. A third possibility, of course, is that it's you who are ignorant and don't understand the full scope and context of Trump's (and his team's) policy.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                No, you should prove your assertion that Trump is either ignorant or lying about economic matters.
                I did not say "economic matters." I said "import tariffs." Trump's statement is demonstrably false - as has been shown. Ergo - he is either ignorant of the truth - or he is aware of the truth and lying.

                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                A third possibility, of course, is that it's you who are ignorant and don't understand the full scope and context of Trump's (and his team's) policy.
                I also said nothing about "policy." You and Seer continue to add to my posts what is not in there.

                MY STATEMENT: Trump either does not understand how import tariff's work, or is lying about them. The proof is Trump's own statements and tweets (already linked) and the definition of how an import tariff works. They are NOT paid for by the source country - they are paid for by the importer of note.

                I am at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you and/or Seer, or why both of you feel a need to add things to my statement I did not put there. I have to assume that either you do not want to acknowledge the reality about Trump, or you simply are not able to grasp the concept. It's not a difficult one.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  STATEMENT: Trump either does not understand who import tariff's work, or is lying about them.
                  The point is that you're presenting a false dilemma. Another possibility is that you are ignorant of certain details that inform Trump's statement.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    The point is that you're presenting a false dilemma. Another possibility is that you are ignorant of certain details that inform Trump's statement.
                    MM - Trump's statement is false: import tariff's are not being paid for by China - a) that's not how import tariff's work - they are paid for by the importer of record; b) in the U.S., no Chinese company is in the top 10 importers. So he is either ignorant of these facts, or lying about it.

                    This is not a "false dilemma." Your responses are somewhat akin to this:

                    Initial claim: Toddlers are paying most of the income tax in the U.S.
                    Statement: The claim 'toddlers are paying most of the income tax in the U.S." is false, so the person saying it is either ignorant of how income tax works, or is repeating a lie over and over.
                    Response: Prove to me that tax policy is failing, or that there isn't something you are ignorant of that makes that statement true!



                    At this point, this exchange has become so ludicrous...it's a waste of my time to continue. Last word to you.
                    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-12-2019, 01:31 PM.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      No, you should prove your assertion that Trump is either ignorant or lying about economic matters. A third possibility, of course, is that it's you who are ignorant and don't understand the full scope and context of Trump's (and his team's) policy.
                      Actually MM, Carp is correct, but over all what Trump is doing is good and necessary.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        MM - Trump's statement is false: import tariff's are not being paid for by China - a) that's not how import tariff's work - they are paid for by the importer of record; b) in the U.S., no Chinese company is in the top 10 importers. So he is either ignorant of these facts, or lying about it.
                        Or there are other facts that you are not aware of which make Trump's statement neither inaccurate nor deceptive.

                        At least you could concede that much.

                        For my part, I'll accept that Trump's statement is perhaps incomplete, but then, I'm not committed to the narrative that he's a chronic liar, so...
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          As the costs of import tariffs flow into the wider economy, domestic manufacturers have the opportunity to raise their prices and still compete with the now more expensive foreign goods. Ultimately, the consumer pays for the tariffs.

                          Tariffs force consumers to protect domestic suppliers; you might think of it as a sort of stealth tax in support of domestic industry.

                          The situation is much more complicated in practice because the trading country can raise its own import tariffs too. All this taxation tends to throttle the world economy.
                          Last edited by firstfloor; 05-13-2019, 02:31 AM.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            As the costs of import tariffs flow into the wider economy, domestic manufacturers have the opportunity to raise their prices and still compete with the now more expensive foreign goods. Ultimately, the consumer pays for the tariffs.

                            Tariffs force consumers to protect domestic suppliers; you might think of it as a sort of stealth tax in support of domestic industry.

                            The situation is much more complicated in practice because the trading country can raise its own import tariffs too. All this taxation tends to throttle the world economy.
                            And there is another dynamic. Tax cuts impact importers of record, and they have to recover those costs somehow. That typically means higher prices to the consumer. A study by Trade Partnership concluded that the new tariffs, if they stay in place, will cost an average family of four $767 per year, which wipes out at least half of the average gain from the tax cut. And even with these new revenues, the federal deficit is projected to stay around $1T per year and exceed $1T by 2022.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              And there is another dynamic. Tax cuts impact importers of record, and they have to recover those costs somehow. That typically means higher prices to the consumer. A study by Trade Partnership concluded that the new tariffs, if they stay in place, will cost an average family of four $767 per year, which wipes out at least half of the average gain from the tax cut. And even with these new revenues, the federal deficit is projected to stay around $1T per year and exceed $1T by 2022.
                              No doubt there will be short term pain, but the goal is a new trade deal that will be more advantageous for us. And no one is talking about the millions of manufacturing jobs lost because of these bad deals. Personally I would rather pay a little more if keeps my neighbor employed. Like you said Carp, it is not all about the money.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                No doubt there will be short term pain, but the goal is a new trade deal that will be more advantageous for us. And no one is talking about the millions of manufacturing jobs lost because of these bad deals. Personally I would rather pay a little more if keeps my neighbor employed. Like you said Carp, it is not all about the money.
                                Correct - it's not all about money (convenient of you to pull out that chestnut when it suits you ).

                                But it is about whether or not the occupant of the White House is actually giving the American public the straight dope - and he generally is not. He's like the con artist that keeps your attention focused over there while he picks your pocket over here. There is little/no evidence that the "common man" has been systemically benefited. What evidence is presented is in the form of anecdotes or carefully cherry-picked data. And it is about the overall impact of his policies on the common man, and so far the data shows that Trump and the Republicans have disproportionately benefited the rich - largely at the expense of future generations. And why not? After all, as Trump notes - he'll be out of office by the time THAT becomes and problem - and those future generations are not objecting...right?

                                But don't get me wrong. I'm all in favor of him continuing down this road and hiking those tariffs. Go Trump go! When we couple those who are not driven by money to those who actually are and are getting screwed - his hopes for 2020 just keep getting dimmer and dimmer.

                                Then, maybe in January 2021, we can truly say, "go, Trump, go"
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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