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The problem and myths of Calcium, diet and suppliments

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I am still waiting for a clear concise expression of the actual argument.
    "Dairy bad."

    I think.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      *emphasis mine


      Just asking for clarification here because I'm not sure I am following this correctly. Were the articles you posted supports for this part of the argument or are you arguing that taking calcium supplements also causes health problems?
      Yes. This is one source, others will be cited. The current research recommends people maintain a balenced diet without Calcium supplements. The problem is what is a balanced diet. The old food triangle high in dairy and meat protein is not recommended. What is recommended is lower meat protein, and dairy, and higher in vegetables and vegetable protein as natural Calcium sources. Also eliminate high glycemic carbs such as sugar, white flour, potatoes, white rice, and corn.

      Source: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/calcium_supplements_may_damage_the_heart


      After analyzing 10 years of medical tests on more than 2,700 people in a federally funded heart disease study, researchers at Johns Hopkins Medicine and elsewhere conclude that taking calcium in the form of supplements may raise the risk of plaque buildup in arteries and heart damage, although a diet high in calcium-rich foods appears be protective.

      In a report on the research, published Oct. 10 in the Journal of the American Heart Association, the researchers caution that their work only documents an association between calcium supplements and atherosclerosis, and does not prove cause and effect.

      But they say the results add to growing scientific concerns about the potential harms of supplements, and they urge a consultation with a knowledgeable physician before using calcium supplements. An estimated 43 percent of American adult men and women take a supplement that includes calcium, according the National Institutes of Health.

      “When it comes to using vitamin and mineral supplements, particularly calcium supplements being taken for bone health, many Americans think that more is always better,” says Erin Michos, M.D., M.H.S., associate director of preventive cardiology and associate professor of medicine at the Ciccarone Center for the Prevention of Heart Disease at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. “But our study adds to the body of evidence that excess calcium in the form of supplements may harm the heart and vascular system.”

      The researchers were motivated to look at the effects of calcium on the heart and vascular system because studies already showed that “ingested calcium supplements — particularly in older people — don’t make it to the skeleton or get completely excreted in the urine, so they must be accumulating in the body’s soft tissues,” says nutritionist John Anderson, Ph.D., professor emeritus of nutrition at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s Gillings School of Global Public Health and a co-author of the report. Scientists also knew that as a person ages, calcium-based plaque builds up in the body’s main blood vessel, the aorta and other arteries, impeding blood flow and increasing the risk of heart attack.

      The investigators looked at detailed information from the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis, a long-running research project funded by the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, which included more than 6,000 people seen at six research universities, including Johns Hopkins. Their study focused on 2,742 of these participants who completed dietary questionnaires and two CT scans spanning 10 years apart.

      The participants chosen for this study ranged in age from 45 to 84, and 51 percent were female. Forty-one percent were white, 26 percent were African-American, 22 percent were Hispanic and 12 percent were Chinese. At the study’s onset in 2000, all participants answered a 120-part questionnaire about their dietary habits to determine how much calcium they took in by eating dairy products; leafy greens; calcium-enriched foods, like cereals; and other calcium-rich foods. Separately, the researchers inventoried what drugs and supplements each participant took on a daily basis. The investigators used cardiac CT scans to measure participants’ coronary artery calcium scores, a measure of calcification in the heart’s arteries and a marker of heart disease risk when the score is above zero. Initially, 1,175 participants showed plaque in their heart arteries. The coronary artery calcium tests were repeated 10 years later to assess newly developing or worsening coronary heart disease.

      © Copyright Original Source

      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Americans have an epidemic lack of vitamin D.

        That alone can be the cause of weak bones since Vitamin D is essential for Calcium to work in making new bone.

        I doubt it has to do with dairy.
        Here in Finland it's quite common for dairy producers to add vitamin D to the milk.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I had to start taking D supplements when I was diagnosed and had to double them 2 years ago.
          Vitamin D deficiency is most common among couch potato closet and cave dwellers in today's culture. Naturally Vitamin D is made in the skin from exposure to the sun.

          As with people of the Northern latitudes the best natural source of Vitamin D is sea fish like Salmon, sardines, and Cod.

          The problems of Calcium in the unbalanced diet with too much dairy and land animal protein is not directly related to Vitamin D issues. European cultures with a high incidence of osteoporosis have a relatively high consumption of sea fish like cod and sardines.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            Here in Finland it's quite common for dairy producers to add vitamin D to the milk.
            same here.

            I think the lack of vitamin D has to do with people being indoors all the time, and being deathly afraid of being in the sun and getting skin cancer. So even when they go outside they cover up, or use heavy sun block. The result is low vitamin D since your body makes it in response to sunlight.

            My doctor just told me that I have low vitamin D too! and I have to start taking 2000 IU per day. My job keeps me indoors during daylight hours. And I have never been much of an outdoor guy on the weekends.

            Comment


            • #21
              Vitamin D deficiency is most common among couch potato closet and cave dwellers in today's culture. Naturally Vitamin D is made in the skin from exposure to the sun.
              That is such an insulting statement.

              I avoid the sun because I had several bad burns as a child and went through treatment for pre-cancerous skin issues several years ago. I've worn sunscreen when I'm outside for 40 years.

              how dare you suggest that people who avoid the sun are couch potatoes and live in closets and caves?

              I don't know what you are trying to point out in this thread, Frank, other than to push some sort of vegan lifestyle, so I'm out of here.

              I expressed my own situation which is different from the study in your op, so there is nothing more for me to say.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                That is such an insulting statement.

                I avoid the sun because I had several bad burns as a child and went through treatment for pre-cancerous skin issues several years ago. I've worn sunscreen when I'm outside for 40 years.

                how dare you suggest that people who avoid the sun are couch potatoes and live in closets and caves?

                I don't know what you are trying to point out in this thread, Frank, other than to push some sort of vegan lifestyle, so I'm out of here.

                I expressed my own situation which is different from the study in your op, so there is nothing more for me to say.
                Your taking personal my statements of a very real problem in western society that developed over the centuries. My statements are of course not a generalization that fits all people, and like yourself there are people who do not fit this unfortunate cultural problem.

                Nonetheless, it is a valid description of the health problem of the prevailing diet and life style of American culture.

                If you have read my posts, I never advocated a vegan diet and life style, in fact I consider the vegan diet misguided, unscientific, and unhealthy. I have only advocated a reduced dairy and animal protein, eliminate high glycemic carbs, eliminate Calcium supplements, and increase vegetables in our diet. Take an observant stroll through a supermarket some time, and you will find that 70% or more of the products are dominated by high glycemic carb content. Industry promotes it because it is the cheapest food, highest profit margin, and by the way addictive. It is the most popular legal cocaine drug of choice in America. Vitamin and supplement department most often have 50 or types of Calcium supplements.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-16-2017, 11:09 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Your taking personal my statements of a very real problem in western society that developed over the centuries. My statements are of course not a generalization that fits all people, and like yourself there are people who do not fit this unfortunate cultural problem.

                  Nonetheless, it is a valid description of the health problem of the prevailing diet and life style of American culture.

                  If you have read my posts, I never advocated a vegan diet and life style, in fact I consider the vegan diet misguided, unscientific, and unhealthy. I have only advocated a reduced dairy, animal protein, high glycemic carbs, eleminate Calcium suppliments, and increased vegetables in our diet. Take stroll through a supermarket some time, and you will find that 70% or more of the products are dominated by high glycemic carb content. Industry promotes it because it is the cheapest food, and by the way addictive.
                  My doctor told me to eat more meat and dairy (specifically yogurt)

                  I think I will listen to him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    My doctor told me to eat more meat and dairy (specifically yogurt)

                    I think I will listen to him.
                    That is your choice. I believe my research sources are valid, and there will be more good references.

                    As far as dairy products go fermented dairy is the best choice.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      That is your choice. I believe my research sources are valid, and there will be more good references.

                      As far as dairy products go fermented dairy is the best choice.
                      when it comes down to a molecular level, calcium is calcium no matter what the source.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        when it comes down to a molecular level, calcium is calcium no matter what the source.
                        True as the sky is Carolina blue on a clear 4th of July at noon, except there are about 12 isotopes of Calcium, but not the issue concerning problems of Calcium metabolism in humans.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-16-2017, 12:58 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          True as the sky is Carolina blue on a clear 4th of July at noon, except there are about 12 isotopes of Calcium, but not the issue concerning problems of Calcium metabolism in humans.
                          well I would think that mammal milk would contain the correct type of calcium for mammals to build bones with, since that is the purpose of having calcium in milk in the first place. Whereas, calcium in plants is made for plants to use.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            well I would think that mammal milk would contain the correct type of calcium for mammals to build bones with, since that is the purpose of having calcium in milk in the first place. Whereas, calcium in plants is made for plants to use.
                            Huh!?!?!?! No!
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Huh!?!?!?! No!
                              You were the one going on about how not all calcium is the same. So if there are various kinds of calcium, I would rather ingest calcium that is evolutionarily designed to build bones in mammals: milk.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                when it comes down to a molecular level, calcium is calcium no matter what the source.
                                Calcium is calcium, but various forms are more easily absorbed by the body. Calcium that's naturally a part of food is generally easier to absorb than that in a supplement.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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