And can you still support him?

[tabibito]

1 Cor 3:15 presupposes that there is something to test. And what is tested is that which is built ... and the building is done upon the foundation of Christ.

[oxmixmudd]

The thief did as many works as he had opportunity to do in the circumstaces - he confessed Christ.

Exactly. If a person truly confesses Christ and is saved, Christ WILL (not maybe, not might) change him/her. He/she WILL become a new creation. And as a consequence he/she will do good things - if given the opportunity.

Grace allows for the fact sometimes we think we are doing good but we ultimately are not.

Grace allows for the fact we are week and stumble, we can't always overcome the sin nature in the moment. We don't always even want to overcome the sin nature in the moment.

Grace allows for the fact we come to the party late - and even though we only worked a very short time, our wages are the same as the fellow that worked all day - as it were.

Grace allows for forgiveness (notice that in our world of redefined sin and faux righteousness, when one commits whatever is now regarded as sin, no matter how far in the past, no matter what the old definition of sin was, there is no forgiveness. There is no allowances for the possibility of change, or of repentance. In this new world, one must not only never have sinned, one must never have sinned by what are the current (and constantly changing) definitions of sin and evil)

But a person that is not changed by their encounter with Christ, that person is not saved, no matter what words they use. A person cannot encounter the risen Christ and chose to follow Him and not be changed for the better.

But I am not qualified (nor is anyone) to assess with accuracy the actual state of a person before Christ at any given time. What we can do is call people to Christ and hold up the standard of what He calls us to and rebuke actions, words, attitudes that are contrary to who He is and what He calls us to.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

1 Cor 3:15 presupposes that there is something to test.

Yes, that "something" would be one's works as a Christian, and Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians that when the Christian is tested, even if all of his works are burned up leaving nothing of value in the ashes, the person will still be saved even though he will suffer some kind of loss.

[JimL]

Yes, that "something" would be one's works as a Christian, and Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians that when the Christian is tested, even if all of his works are burned up leaving nothing of value in the ashes, the person will still be saved even though he will suffer some kind of loss.

Perhaps if such passages were written in understandable language they would be better understood and agreed upon as to their meaning.

[tabibito]

The believer has produced works to be tested. There's plenty said about believers who build nothing, usually in Jesus' parables, and the outcome for them isn't salvation.

[Mountain Man]

Perhaps if such passages were written in understandable language they would be better understood and agreed upon as to their meaning.

Only you would suggest that plain English is not an understandable language.

[tabibito]

Yes, that "something" would be one's works as a Christian, and Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians that when the Christian is tested, even if all of his works are burned up leaving nothing of value in the ashes, the person will still be saved even though he will suffer some kind of loss.

There's Paul saying that the person's works will be tested, and you saying that the person will be tested. There's Paul saying that even if, in the final analysis, a persons works come to nothing, he will be saved. The person who has no works is not mentioned or even alluded to in this passage.

[Mountain Man]

The believer has produced works to be tested.

Yes, and Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire," which suggests that a Christian remains saved even if he doesn't produce any lasting works. This is obviously not ideal as Paul concedes that "he will suffer loss", but it is the loss of rewards and not his salvation.

Yes, faith should produce lasting works, but the work of Jesus on the cross is final and can not be added to, which is to say that good works do not add to our salvation but rather add to the rewards we will receive in the Final Judgment.

[tabibito]

No lasting works, yes.
No works at all, no.
The parable of the talents being just one explanation of the point.
The parable of the guest at the wedding who did not put on appropriate robes being another.
The parable of the wise virgins, with their lamps prepared; and the foolish whose lamps were not; yet another.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Acts 26:20 Luke stating that Paul claimed to be "preaching repenting and turning to god, and producing works in keeping with repentance."

PAUL
2 Cor 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (not faith; repentance leads to salvation)
Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (not faith; confession leads to salvation.)

[oxmixmudd]

Perhaps if such passages were written in understandable language they would be better understood and agreed upon as to their meaning.

Its not a trivial to comprehend concept. But It's actually a very good concept to use to help explain to overky literal minded christians always trying to why oversimplification can easily oroduce a distortion of complex topics. Such things are

[Mountain Man]

No lasting works, yes.
No works at all, no.

Anything we do, even sin, is a work. Yes, we should produce works in keeping with our salvation. No, works are not necessary for and do not add to our salvation.

Of course the Bible is clear that if someone claims to be a Christian but does not feel compelled to do good works should take a long, hard look at himself and determine if he's truly saved. But like my pastor once said, "If you continue to struggle with sin, that's good, because it means that sin hasn't beaten you!"

[tabibito]

I have yet to find a verse that claims faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Not one, to the the best of my knowledge, exists. Faith is invariably coupled with something else when it is involved in salvation, though it can stand alone as a factor in justification.

[Mountain Man]

I have yet to find a verse that claims faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Not one, to the the best of my knowledge, exists. Faith is invariably coupled with something else when it is involved in salvation, though it can stand alone as a factor in justification.

And how do you reconcile that with Paul saying that a person can still be saved even if none of his works pass the final test?

[oxmixmudd]

Its not a trivial to comprehend concept. But It's actually a very good concept to use to help explain to overky literal minded christians always trying to why oversimplification can easily oroduce a distortion of complex topics. Such things are

Sorry about that distorted reply. Basically, grace vs works is not easily simplified, and often when people try to over-simplify it, they distort it.

Its a good example that christians should be able to ubderstand when trying to help them see why it usually is not a good idea to oversimplify other topics, like creation evolution, or climate change, or other scientific and social issues we struggle with today.


Jim

[NorrinRadd]

I have yet to find a verse that claims faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Not one, to the the best of my knowledge, exists. Faith is invariably coupled with something else when it is involved in salvation, though it can stand alone as a factor in justification.

John 6 seems (to me) to be fairly clear in teaching that the only "work" needed to obtain "eternal life" is to "believe" in Jesus. IOW, in John's terminology, "pisteuo" itself is sufficient.