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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Luke 1:43

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  • Luke 1:43

    Luke 1:43Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    43 How could this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

    What is the Greek word used for "Lord" and what does it mean?

    In addition, what Greek word is used for "Lord" in the following passage?

    John 20:28Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

    28 Thomas responded to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Good resource is

    http://www.studylight.org/desk/interlinear.cgi

    It is an interlinear bible. Shows you the greek words when you click on the english.

    Luke 1:43 Lord

    # 2962 κύριος
    kýrios
    from kuros (supremacy)


    he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    the possessor and disposer of a thing
    the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    this title is given to: God, the Messiah

    KJV (748) - Lord, 667; Sir, 6; lord, 54; master, 11; misc, 4; sir, 6
    NAS (720) - Lord, 626; Lord of lords, 2; Lord's, 12; lord, 10; lords, 1; master, 38; master's, 3; masters, 8; masters', 1; owner, 6; owners, 1; sir, 11; sirs, 1
    HCS (717) - 'Master, 1; He, Sir, 1; Him, 1; LORD, 1; Lord, 411; Lord's, 19; Master, 10; Masters, 1; OF LORDS, 1; Sir, 11; Sirs, 1; The Lord, 13; The Lord's, 3; You, Lord, 3; a Master, 1; am, Lord, 1; as Lord, 2; as you would the Lord, 1; for the Lord, 4; from the Lord, 3; in the Lord's, 1; is Lord, 3; it for the honor of the Lord, 1; it is for the Lord, 1; it, lord, 1; lord, 2; lords, 1; many as the Lord, 1; master, 31; master's, 5; masters, 6; of lords, 1; of our Lord, 1; of the Lord, 44; of the Lord's, 1; owner, 5; owners, 3; take the Lord's, 1; the Lord, 109; the Lord's, 7; the owner, 1; then the Lord, 1; will, sir, 1


    Same word in John 20:28

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Good resource is

      http://www.studylight.org/desk/interlinear.cgi

      It is an interlinear bible. Shows you the greek words when you click on the english.

      Luke 1:43 Lord

      # 2962 κύριος
      kýrios
      from kuros (supremacy)


      he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
      the possessor and disposer of a thing
      the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
      in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
      is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
      this title is given to: God, the Messiah

      KJV (748) - Lord, 667; Sir, 6; lord, 54; master, 11; misc, 4; sir, 6
      NAS (720) - Lord, 626; Lord of lords, 2; Lord's, 12; lord, 10; lords, 1; master, 38; master's, 3; masters, 8; masters', 1; owner, 6; owners, 1; sir, 11; sirs, 1
      HCS (717) - 'Master, 1; He, Sir, 1; Him, 1; LORD, 1; Lord, 411; Lord's, 19; Master, 10; Masters, 1; OF LORDS, 1; Sir, 11; Sirs, 1; The Lord, 13; The Lord's, 3; You, Lord, 3; a Master, 1; am, Lord, 1; as Lord, 2; as you would the Lord, 1; for the Lord, 4; from the Lord, 3; in the Lord's, 1; is Lord, 3; it for the honor of the Lord, 1; it is for the Lord, 1; it, lord, 1; lord, 2; lords, 1; many as the Lord, 1; master, 31; master's, 5; masters, 6; of lords, 1; of our Lord, 1; of the Lord, 44; of the Lord's, 1; owner, 5; owners, 3; take the Lord's, 1; the Lord, 109; the Lord's, 7; the owner, 1; then the Lord, 1; will, sir, 1


      Same word in John 20:28
      OK, I am trying to decide if Lord in Luke 1:43 can be translated as God, not just a title of respect. Catholics say that Elizabeth is saying Mary is the mother of God, using Luke 1:43 to prove it.

      BTW: I'm not very good at this and that is why I need help.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        Luke 1:43Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

        43 How could this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

        What is the Greek word used for "Lord" and what does it mean?

        In addition, what Greek word is used for "Lord" in the following passage?

        John 20:28Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

        28 Thomas responded to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

        Thanks.
        The Greek word is the same Greek word κυριος kurios used both of God and of men.

        It is my understand it is being used referring to Christ in His incarnation, in Him being a man, in a distinction from Him being God. Christ, of course, being both the man and God.
        Psalm 110:1,
        The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

        1 Corinthians 8:6,
        . . . But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. . . .

        1 Timothy 2:5,
        . . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . .
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          The Greek word is the same Greek word κυριος kurios used both of God and of men.

          It is my understand it is being used referring to Christ in His incarnation, in Him being a man, in a distinction from Him being God. Christ, of course, being both the man and God.
          Psalm 110:1,
          The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

          1 Corinthians 8:6,
          . . . But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. . . .

          1 Timothy 2:5,
          . . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . .
          Do you think Luke 1:43 supports the Catholic position that this verse says Mary is the mother of God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Do you think Luke 1:43 supports the Catholic position that this verse says Mary is the mother of God?
            They mean that:

            1. Jesus is the incarnation of God
            2. Mary is Jesus' mother
            so therefore, she is technically the mother of (the incarnation) of God the Son.

            It doesn't mean she is the creator of God or anything like that.

            so in Luke 1:43, the word "Lord" refers to Jesus, who is God the Son, so indirectly it is referring to God. Just like when you pray "My Lord, blah blah blah" when you are saying "Lord" you are referring to God.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              They mean that:

              1. Jesus is the incarnation of God
              2. Mary is Jesus' mother
              so therefore, she is technically the mother of (the incarnation) of God the Son.

              It doesn't mean she is the creator of God or anything like that.

              so in Luke 1:43, the word "Lord" refers to Jesus, who is God the Son, so indirectly it is referring to God. Just like when you pray "My Lord, blah blah blah" when you are saying "Lord" you are referring to God.
              It is important to know what Elizabeth meant by "Lord" at that time.

              Even though we know now that Jesus is God, they didn't know it then. They were not expecting the Messiah to be God.

              So, if John 20:28 uses the same word for "Lord" as Luke 1:43, Thomas must have used a different word for "God." Theos?

              If so, then in order for Luke 1:43 to mean God, (mother of God) the same word would have been used -- Theos.

              Otherwise, Thomas is saying "My God and my God."

              John Reece used to take pity on me for some of my questions!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                It is important to know what Elizabeth meant by "Lord" at that time.

                Even though we know now that Jesus is God, they didn't know it then. They were not expecting the Messiah to be God.
                The point is contestable.

                So, if John 20:28 uses the same word for "Lord" as Luke 1:43, Thomas must have used a different word for "God." Theos?
                o kurios mou kai o theos mou (my lord and my God) - your surmise is correct.

                If so, then in order for Luke 1:43 to mean God, (mother of God) the same word would have been used -- Theos.
                Kurios translates the Hebrew "YHVH" (Jehovah) among other words.

                Otherwise, Thomas is saying "My God and my God."
                No. Kurios in that context does not mean God.

                John Reece used to take pity on me for some of my questions!
                Identity of Christ is important. Identity of Mary, not so much. Hebrews chapter 9 and Philippians 2: 1 - 11 will explain well enough the identity of Christ. (though note: the translations of Ephesians 2:6 are sub-optimal)

                "kurios" acknowledges the person spoken of as a superior. An adult acknowledging an as yet unborn child as her superior doesn't incontestably show that the unborn child is God, but it does say that there is something more than usually significant about that child.

                Sparko's reply in post#6 is more than adequate.
                Last edited by tabibito; 07-11-2017, 09:44 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #9
                  well if "Lord" in verse 43 wasn't indirectly referring to God, then who was "Lord" referring to in verse 45?

                  43 Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. 45 How blessed is this woman who believed that what the Lord told her would be fulfilled!”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There you go. One verse by itself would not be enough to establish the matter, but in conjunction with others, it becomes cut and dried.

                    Just as John 1:1 standing alone won't establish that Jesus was God, nor even the Word come to that. It takes more than the one verse to show that he was incontestably both.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      well if "Lord" in verse 43 wasn't indirectly referring to God, then who was "Lord" referring to in verse 45?

                      43 Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. 45 How blessed is this woman who believed that what the Lord told her would be fulfilled!”
                      What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?

                      Go back and see:

                      30 Then the angel told her:

                      Do not be afraid, Mary,
                      for you have found favor with God.
                      31 Now listen:
                      You will conceive and give birth to a son,
                      and you will call His name Jesus.
                      32 He will be great
                      and will be called the Son of the Most High,

                      and the Lord God will give Him
                      the throne of His father David.
                      33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
                      and His kingdom will have no end.


                      These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.

                      It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

                      http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43

                      Clip:

                      Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?

                      Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.

                      Note: John 13:13

                      John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

                      13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

                      So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                        What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?

                        Go back and see:

                        30 Then the angel told her:

                        Do not be afraid, Mary,
                        for you have found favor with God.
                        31 Now listen:
                        You will conceive and give birth to a son,
                        and you will call His name Jesus.
                        32 He will be great
                        and will be called the Son of the Most High,

                        and the Lord God will give Him
                        the throne of His father David.
                        33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
                        and His kingdom will have no end.


                        These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.

                        It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

                        http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43

                        Clip:

                        Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?

                        Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.

                        Note: John 13:13

                        John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

                        13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

                        So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.

                        sigh.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                          What did the Lord tell her that would be fulfilled?

                          Go back and see:

                          30 Then the angel told her:

                          Do not be afraid, Mary,
                          for you have found favor with God.
                          31 Now listen:
                          You will conceive and give birth to a son,
                          and you will call His name Jesus.
                          32 He will be great
                          and will be called the Son of the Most High,

                          and the Lord God will give Him
                          the throne of His father David.
                          33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
                          and His kingdom will have no end.


                          These verses say that Jesus would be the Messiah.

                          It says nothing about Jesus being the second person of the Trinity.

                          http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...erse=43#Lu1_43

                          Clip:

                          Verse 43. And whence is this to me? An expression of humility. Why is it that the mother of my Lord {q} should come to me, as if to honour me?

                          Mother of my Lord. The word Lord sometimes denotes divinity, and sometimes superior, master, teacher, or governor. It was given by the Jews to their expected Messiah; but whether they understood it as denoting divinity cannot now be ascertained. It is clear only that Elisabeth used it as denoting great dignity and honour.

                          Note: John 13:13

                          John 13:13Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

                          13 You call Me Teacher and Lord. This is well said, for I am.

                          So, are we to understand that Jesus is calling Himself God in this verse? No.
                          To understand verse Luke 1:43, you need to understand what Zacharias and Elizabeth understood.

                          Source: Luke 1:13-17 NKJV

                          13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          See also Zacharias' prophecy:
                          Source: Luke 1:68-79

                          68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
                          For He has visited and redeemed His people,
                          69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
                          In the house of His servant David,
                          70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
                          Who have been since the world began,
                          71 That we should be saved from our enemies
                          And from the hand of all who hate us,
                          72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
                          And to remember His holy covenant,
                          73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
                          74 To grant us that we,
                          Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
                          Might serve Him without fear,
                          75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
                          76 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
                          For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
                          77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
                          By the remission of their sins,
                          78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
                          With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
                          79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
                          To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          John is going before the Lord, the God of Israel (v. 16-17), "the face of the Lord" (v. 76). Does that help?
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            Do you think Luke 1:43 supports the Catholic position that this verse says Mary is the mother of God?
                            My understanding, no. It refers to Him being Lord in regard to His humanity.

                            But Catholics do think it refers to His deity.
                            https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...-mother-of-god
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              My understanding, no. It refers to Him being Lord in regard to His humanity.

                              But Catholics do think it refers to His deity.
                              https://www.catholic.com/magazine/on...-mother-of-god
                              I think we can safely say that Mary is the mother of God the Son.

                              Saying that Mary is the Mother of God implies that she is the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

                              I took my question to a person who teaches Greek and this is what he said:

                              Often "my lord" just means "the honored person to whom I'm speaking" or "you, sir." In this case, that isn't the meaning. The speaker is addressing Mary, the mother of Jesus. He means that Jesus would be his lord or ruler. The text reads:

                              καὶ πόθεν μοι τοῦτο ἵνα ἔλθῃ ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου πρὸς ἐμέ;
                              - Luke 1:43 (SBLGNT)

                              The word for "lord" is part of a genitive phrase. The whole phrase is ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ κυρίου μου "the mother of my lord." It is the same word that is used at least hundreds of times for Jesus in the NT. It's normally used in a slave-master relationship, but is a general term for someone that you serve.

                              I asked him if Elizabeth is saying that Mary is the mother of God and he replied:

                              "If she meant that, why wouldn't she say "the mother of my god" (ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ θεοῦ μου)?"

                              Comment

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