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Impeachment Related: GAO Determines Trump Violated Impoundment Control Act

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  • #61
    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    That’s some great loaded language there Jim, but those of us not infected with TDS see an issue with violating the same law, in six separate occasions. To use your own analogy, the Obama administration walked out of the store, six times, forgetting to pay for something. Are they that forgetful or do they do it on purpose and simply try to pass it off as an honest mistake? Nice avoidance Jim, but my point remains unanswered. Is the Obama administration simply incompetent or guilty? Pick your poison.
    Pix, you are off the rails again. If you can produce violations that are clearly of a similar naturexand purpose of this violation by Trump, then you have a point, if not, you dont. So get to establishing you have a point, unless there is no such example.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Pix, you are off the rails again. If you can produce violations that are clearly of a similar naturexand purpose of this violation by Trump, then you have a point, if not, you dont. So get to establishing you have a point, unless there is no such example.
      That’s some great A gaslighting you got going on there, but I’m right on track and your gaslighting is proof of that. One doesn’t ‘accidentally’ do something, time and time again, unless something is wrong with them or they are doing it on purpose. What one is it Jim? Did the Obama administration willingly violate the law or were they incompetent?
      Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 01-17-2020, 10:23 AM.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        [ - loony talk removed - ] One doesn’t ‘accidentally’ do something, time and time again, unless something is wrong with them or they are doing it on purpose. What one is it Jim? Did the Obama administration willingly violate the law or were they incompetent?
        So you don't have an example of purposed manipulation by the Obama administration. Fair enough. I would not know enough about how easy or hard it is to bump up against incidental violations of this law to know the answer to the question of incompentence or willful violation. However, consider that in traffic law we have purposefully driving at +4mph in a 35mph school zone, and purposefully driving at 120mph in a 35mph school zone. And while they are both 'purposful violations of the law', there is no equivalence. Indeed, it is quite rare to see someone given a ticket for +4mph school zone. And quite common to see someone using a moped for a while (if not spending some time in jail) after being stopped for 120mph in a 35mph school zone.

        You see, you are cherry picking terms to try to force me into arguing there is some sort of equivalence here when there isn't. The law exists to stop what Trump did. It does not exist as a tool to harshly punish administrations trying to do good things that bump up against ad hoc boundaries. But you know that already.

        So back to it: Do you have an example of the Obama administration similarly abusing its power WRT this particular sort of blocking of congressionally allocated funds.

        Since the reactions of the employees in the OMB to Trump's attempt to block such a large and sensitive set of funds was anywhere from shock to resignation, and no such actions seem to have been found in any administration since nixon except for Trumps, I would hazard to guess the answer is 'no'.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          That’s some great loaded language there Jim, but those of us not infected with TDS see an issue with violating the same law, in six separate occasions. To use your own analogy, the Obama administration walked out of the store, six times, forgetting to pay for something. Are they that forgetful or do they do it on purpose and simply try to pass it off as an honest mistake? Nice avoidance Jim, but my point remains unanswered. Is the Obama administration simply incompetent or guilty? Pick your poison.
          I'm going to ask that you pair your questions and snark with a substantive argument regarding the OP. Specifically, it's not sufficient to say "See, Obama broke the law, too!" -- to prevent this thread from derailing, please explain 1) why Obama's 2014 violation is relevant to Trump's 2019 violation and/or 2) why the GAO's decision regarding Trump's 2019 violation was in error.

          --Sam
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Based on the posts made here concerning the sorts of violations attributed to Obama as they compare with what Trump has done, that most certainly does define your thinking.

            Can you give an example not yet mentioned of Obama abusing this policy in a way that is even close by comparison to what Trump has done?

            So far with obama we are talking about technicalities, procedural delays that bumped up against arbitrary limits, not willful, purposed deception and violation for personal gain.
            Your question assumes certain premises that are in dispute. For one thing, I don't think Trump has done what you think he's done.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              The only repercussion listed in the Act is for the Comptroller to sue the President to release the funds. And that lawsuit will then be considered "official notification" to Congress of the hold.
              I'm sorry but I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. Your claim was that the OMB footnotes to DOD constituted "notification to Congress" and so GAO's ruling was in error.

              Apart from that, we're not talking about what the typical remedy for violating the ICA is. As mentioned before, Trump violated the ICA as part of a wider effort to abuse his power for personal gain -- that's what he's being impeached for. The violation of the ICA is just an element, one that should factor into the "Where's the crime?" question. This isn't a criminal violation, of course, but impeachment doesn't require a criminal violation.

              --Sam
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                Trump held up funds, which wouldn't in itself be impeachable except in connection with the crime it was associated with.
                And what crime is that? Cite the specific legal statute that was supposedly violated and the evidence that you could take court to prove it.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  And what crime is that? Cite the specific legal statute that was supposedly violated and the evidence that you could take court to prove it.
                  If you change people's usernames to an insult, I will ask you leave and I will request that be enforced through moderation.

                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    So you don't have an example of purposed manipulation by the Obama administration. Fair enough. I would not know enough about how easy or hard it is to bump up against incidental violations of this law to know the answer to the question of incompentence or willful violation. However, consider that in traffic law we have purposefully driving at +4mph in a 35mph school zone, and purposefully driving at 120mph in a 35mph school zone. And while they are both 'purposful violations of the law', there is no equivalence. Indeed, it is quite rare to see someone given a ticket for +4mph school zone. And quite common to see someone using a moped for a while (if not spending some time in jail) after being stopped for 120mph in a 35mph school zone.

                    You see, you are cherry picking terms to try to force me into arguing there is some sort of equivalence here when there isn't. The law exists to stop what Trump did. It does not exist as a tool to harshly punish administrations trying to do good things that bump up against ad hoc boundaries. But you know that already.

                    So back to it: Do you have an example of the Obama administration similarly abusing its power WRT this particular sort of blocking of congressionally allocated funds.

                    Since the reactions of the employees in the OMB to Trump's attempt to block such a large and sensitive set of funds was anywhere from shock to resignation, and no such actions seem to have been found in any administration since nixon except for Trumps, I would hazard to guess the answer is 'no'.
                    Avoidance noted:

                    You’re gaslighting and inability to understand this simple point highlights the weakness of your position. You’re attempting to pass off the Obama administration as simply making a mistake, yet, how does one make the same exact mistake, on six different occasions? Are they stupid or doing it on purpose? To use your own speeding example, if someone is going 5 miles over the speed limit the first time, it can be written off as a mistake, but six different time? At what point is it no longer a mistake? Do you seriously not understand this point? Have you seriously never seen anyone playing stupid, to get out of trouble? There’s no equivalence or cherry picking at all, just your TDS rotting the reason centers of your brain. One doesn’t do the same wrong thing, six different times, unless something is really wrong with them or they are playing stupid to stay out of trouble.
                    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 01-17-2020, 11:24 AM.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      If you change people's usernames to an insult, I will ask you leave and I will request that be enforced through moderation.

                      --Sam
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        [ - looney talk removed - ] You’re attempting to pass off the Obama administration as simply making a mistake, yet, how does one make the same exact mistake, on six different occasions? Are they stupid or doing it on purpose?
                        No I'm not. I'm not making any sort of decision about whether they willfully bumped up against the boundaries or incidentally bumped up against the boundaries. What I'm saying it that what they did was within normal and acceptable bounds, and while it technically might have violated the law, it did not do so in a way that constituted abuse of the power of the presidency or in a way that warranted punitive action, in the same way that +4 in a school zone is not a sufficiently egregious violation of the law as to warrant punitive action.

                        To use your own speeding example, if someone is going 5 miles over the speed limit the first time, it can be written off as a mistake, but six different time? At what point is it no longer a mistake? Do you seriously not understand this point? Have you seriously never seen anyone playing stupid, to get out of trouble?
                        Where I live, no-one is given tickets solely for driving +4 over the speed limit, no matter how many times they do it. +4 is, in fact, likely going to be one of the slower cars on the road.

                        There’s no equivalence or cherry picking at all, [ - looney talk removed - ]. One doesn’t do the same wrong thing, six different times, unless something is really wrong with them or they are playing stupid to stay out of trouble.
                        Yes they do. Nearly everyone in this country drives somewhere between 1 and 5 mph above the speed limit. Most people on interstates are 3 to 8mph over. It is the custom in this country NOT to drive at or below the speed limit. It is 'wrong' to mildly speed in name only. It is not enforced unless the person is driving recklessly (or that county needs some revenue). I do not know the custom of how this issue is handled or how violations occur as it relates to the OMB etc, but in the examples shown so far in this thread, Obama was not abusing his power, necessary actions just didn't quite fit into the ad hoc boundaries of the law.

                        Trump seriously abused this law, and for personal gain, not national interest. Just like a person driving 120MPH in a 35MPH school zone. Obama bumped up against it - more like a fellow wanting to shave an hour of a 12 hour business trip on an interstate driving at +7. It just is not the same thing.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-17-2020, 12:09 PM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          No I'm not. I'm not making any sort of decision about whether they willfully bumped up against the boundaries or incidentally bumped up against the boundaries. What I'm saying it that what they did was within normal and acceptable bounds, and while it technically might have violated the law, it did not do so in a way that constituted abuse of the power of the presidency or in a way that warranted punitive action, in the same way that +4 in a school zone is not a sufficiently egregious violation of the law as to warrant punitive action.
                          I see, “it’s totally different because of reasons or something!”

                          You’re excuses for democrats, while claiming not to be one, is heartwarming, but how does one violate the same law, on six occasions, and it be an honest mistake every time?

                          Where I live, no-one is given tickets solely for driving +4 over the speed limit, no matter how many times they do it. +4 is, in fact, likely going to be one of the slower cars on the road.
                          Which doesn’t change what I asked, if you violated the same law, on six different occasions, is it an honest mistake still? You’re doing your best not to answer this point, why?

                          Yes they do. Nearly everyone in this country drives somewhere between 1 and 5 mph above the speed limit. Most people on interstates are 3 to 8mph over. It is the custom in this country NOT to drive at or below the speed limit. It is 'wrong' to mildly speed in name only. It is not enforced unless the person is driving recklessly (or that county needs some revenue). I do not know the custom of how this issue is handled or how violations occur as it relates to the OMB etc, but in the examples shown so far in this thread, Obama was not abusing his power, necessary actions just didn't quite fit into the ad hoc boundaries of the law.
                          That’s nice, but that doesn’t answer a word I said. How does one violate the same law, on six different times and it be an honest mistake every single time?

                          Trump seriously abused this law, and for personal gain, not national interest. Just like a person driving 120MPH in a 35MPH school zone. Obama bumped up against it - more like a fellow wanting to shave an hour of a 12 hour business trip on an interstate driving at +7. It just is not the same thing.
                          No he didn’t, but we both know that you believe Trump is the most evil person to ever lived, so it’s pointless to argue with you when TDS has so throughly infested your brain. How does one violate the same law, six different times, and it be an honest mistake every single time?
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            If you're going to continue, LPoT, I have to ask that you make a substantial, affirmative case tying into the OP. Incessant and ever-changing questions sprinkled with snark and venom alone are not sufficient.You can do all that but you have to be a meaningful contributor to the topic, too.--Sam
                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            I see, “it’s totally different because of reasons or something!”You’re excuses for democrats, while claiming not to be one, is heartwarming, but how does one violate the same law, on six occasions, and it be an honest mistake every time?Which doesn’t change what I asked, if you violated the same law, on six different occasions, is it an honest mistake still? You’re doing your best not to answer this point, why?That’s nice, but that doesn’t answer a word I said. How does one violate the same law, on six different times and it be an honest mistake every single time?No he didn’t, but we both know that you believe Trump is the most evil person to ever lived, so it’s pointless to argue with you when TDS has so throughly infested your brain. How does one violate the same law, six different times, and it be an honest mistake every single time?
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              If you're going to continue, LPoT, I have to ask that you make a substantial, affirmative case tying into the OP. Incessant and ever-changing questions sprinkled with snark and venom alone are not sufficient.You can do all that but you have to be a meaningful contributor to the topic, too.--Sam
                              Jim post loads of snark = perfectly okay!

                              I post snark = EVIL!!!!

                              Got to love the smell of rank hypocrisy, but I understand why you need to defend your buddy because he doesn’t seem able to explain how six separate violations, of the same law, is merely an innocent mistake nor does he seem able to explain how it is totally different because reasons or something. I understand, you got to protect your buddy. Stick together.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                Jim post loads of snark = perfectly okay!

                                I post snark = EVIL!!!!

                                Got to love the smell of rank hypocrisy, but I understand why you need to defend your buddy because he doesn’t seem able to explain how six separate violations, of the same law, is merely an innocent mistake nor does he seem able to explain how it is totally different because reasons or something. I understand, you got to protect your buddy. Stick together.
                                Jim is throwing shade like others and, like others, is doing so in the context of trying to make affirmative and substantive contributions to the topic. In particular, he has provided substantive distinctions that amount to more than "reasons or something" -- you have avoided any sort of substantive rebuttal of those points. You're free to snark but, like others, I'm asking that you do the work of making an affirmative and substantive case for your point and earn the privilege of throwing shade.

                                When you're willing to do that, feel free to come back. Until then, I'm asking that you do not continue to drag the thread away from its purpose.

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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