Should God Appear To Me?

[JimL]

They go to hell for sinning.

But that can't be Sparko, that would be unjust. What you're arguing is that your god favors certain peoples over other people for no good reason. Is your god unjust?

[Sparko]

But that can't be Sparko, that would be unjust. What you're arguing is that your god favors certain peoples over other people for no good reason. Is your god unjust?

He favors those who ask for forgiveness through his Son's sacrifice in their place. I told you that you had to believe in God to be saved but if you don't, you will be damned because of your sins.

Pure Justice would be to make all people regardless to pay for their sins. But God has Mercy on us instead. So in that manner I guess you can say it is "unjust" - I sure don't deserve to be saved. I am no better than you are. I just asked Jesus to forgive and save me.

The same unjust offer is open to you too.

[JimL]

He favors those who ask for forgiveness through his Son's sacrifice in their place. I told you that you had to believe in God to be saved but if you don't, you will be damned because of your sins.

Pure Justice would be to make all people regardless to pay for their sins. But God has Mercy on us instead. So in that manner I guess you can say it is "unjust" - I sure don't deserve to be saved. I am no better than you are. I just asked Jesus to forgive and save me.

The same unjust offer is open to you too.

You're avoiding the point Sparko. What about all those who have never heard of, therefore have never asked for, forgiveness from your god? They go to hell, right, and that, as you admit, would be unjust, no? So is your god an unjust god?

[Sparko]

You're avoiding the point Sparko. What about all those who have never heard of, therefore have never asked for, forgiveness from your god? They go to hell, right, and that, as you admit, would be unjust, no? So is your god an unjust god?

I already answered you on this same question several times, JimL. They go to hell because they are sinners and that is JUST. The 'unjust' part is that God has mercy on those who ask him for salvation and turn their lives over to him based on Jesus' sacrifice. The reason Jesus had to die was to satisfy that justice so that God could extend mercy on to any who ask. So that way God can remain just and the sins are punished but Jesus paid the punishment instead of me. The debt owed was paid. Your debt can be paid too if you just ask. But since you won't you will just pay it yourself and justice is done.

Romans 10 talks about this very question of yours. You might want to read it. Heck read all of Romans. It lays everything out for you: mercy, justification, sanctification. Give it a try.

[Rushing Jaws]

Does God owe you a personal appearance?

The link can be found here.

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What if an atheist requires a personal appearance? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.*

Many times when I ask someone who is an atheist or an agnostic what it would take to get them to change their mind, they tell me that God would need to appear to them. This sounds like something that makes sense on the face of it. After all, doesn't God want people to come to know Him? Why wouldn't He do this?

Unfortunately, the problems with this are legion. First off, when I encounter someone like this, they are telling me that an argument would not convince them. It would take a personal experience. Therefore, any arguments that I make are ineffective to them. Somehow, these people expect me to be open to argument at the same time, which I am.

Second, God owes us nothing if He is real. It is a presumptuous height to think God owes anyone a personal experience. God could do it, but He could just as easily strike someone with a lightning bolt. That doesn't mean that He would do it or that He should do it.

"But doesn't God want to see me saved?"

Yes. That doesn't mean that God will do anything to cater to you. It doesn't mean that God treats His existence like the answer to a question in Trivial Pursuit. God is not looking for people who will believe that He exists. He is looking for people who are willing to believe the truth about Him and want to know the truth about Him not just to answer an academic question, but because He really matters.*

If you are a wife, imagine a husband who says he loves you, but when he does so, he is just going through the motions. It doesn't really mean something to you. If you are a husband, you want your wife to want to have sex with you, but husbands don't really enjoy duty sex. They'll take it because some sex beats no sex, but what they want the most is to be wanted.

God is looking for disciples. Disciples are people who care about truth claims. They are willing to investigate. If someone is not willing to investigate, then they are not willing to be a disciple.

Also, this would ultimately lead to chaos. For one thing, it would destroy much of free-will en masse. Not only that, imagine any number of people wanting to claim something because God told them in their personal appearance. What would a dictator do with this kind of claim? We have enough denominational differences without these appearances. How many more would we have with? Would we become an even lazier culture?

"But Nick. You believe that in eternity, we will all have a personal appearance of God and this won't go on."

Right. We will also be living in a world where we do not have sinful natures. As long as we have those, we will often twist everything we can to our advantage. This includes the truth of God. We have abundant evidence of people using anything to their own advantage today. How much more so with personal appearances of God being known around the world and the fact of personal appearances not in dispute?

If you want to know if God exists, God could show Himself to you, but it's not to be expected. Granted, it has been happening to Muslims in dreams and to people like Paul, but if God isn't appearing to someone, if He is real, He has a good reason for it. It doesn't invalidate the arguments at all.

In Christ,
Nick Peters

[JimL]

I already answered you on this same question several times, JimL. They go to hell because they are sinners and that is JUST. The 'unjust' part is that God has mercy on those who ask him for salvation and turn their lives over to him based on Jesus' sacrifice. The reason Jesus had to die was to satisfy that justice so that God could extend mercy on to any who ask. So that way God can remain just and the sins are punished but Jesus paid the punishment instead of me. The debt owed was paid. Your debt can be paid too if you just ask. But since you won't you will just pay it yourself and justice is done.

Romans 10 talks about this very question of yours. You might want to read it. Heck read all of Romans. It lays everything out for you: mercy, justification, sanctification. Give it a try.

Right, so like I said, your god is unjust in that he has mercy on those who have heard of his existence and believe it, and not on those who have never heard of his existence nor believe it? So your god is unjust, right or wrong?

[Sparko]

Right, so like I said, your god is unjust in that he has mercy on those who have heard of his existence and believe it, and not on those who have never heard of his existence nor believe it? So your god is unjust, right or wrong?

He is just. That is why Jesus had to die for our sins.

[JimL]

He is just. That is why Jesus had to die for our sins.

No, he apparently only died for the sins of those who have ever heard of him and believe in him. That's unjust , right?

[Sparko]

No, he apparently only died for the sins of those who have ever heard of him and believe in him. That's unjust , right?

No he died for your sins too. All you have to do is accept it. But you can't because you don't believe in God. It's all your fault.

[JimL]

No he died for your sins too. All you have to do is accept it. But you can't because you don't believe in God. It's all your fault.

Still avoiding the obvious I see, Sparko. There are billions of people who lived and had never heard of Jesus and so didn't believe in him, which, according to you, they all went to hell. Did Jesus die for their sins? Of course not. Now try answering to that instead of continuing to spew your illogical nonsense.

[Sparko]

Still avoiding the obvious I see, Sparko. There are billions of people who lived and had never heard of Jesus and so didn't believe in him, which, according to you, they all went to hell. Did Jesus die for their sins? Of course not. Now try answering to that instead of continuing to spew your illogical nonsense.

Yes Jesus died for everyone's sins and freely saves all who ask. and everyone who goes to hell does so because of their own sins. The reason you can't accept it is because you are damned. To you it all sounds foolish. But that's to be expected. If you had any sense you would believe and be saved. So instead God gives you over to your own delusion.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

[JimL]

Yes Jesus died for everyone's sins and freely saves all who ask. and everyone who goes to hell does so because of their own sins. The reason you can't accept it is because you are damned. To you it all sounds foolish. But that's to be expected. If you had any sense you would believe and be saved. So instead God gives you over to your own delusion.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Why, I wonder, don't you address my actual argument rather than repeating the same drivel over and over again. Are you having a problem comprehending my point? Here, I'll try once again. See if you can get it this time. "There have been millions of people who have lived and never even heard of your Jesus of 2000 years ago. Did Jesus die in order to save them or not?

[Sparko]

Why, I wonder, don't you address my actual argument rather than repeating the same drivel over and over again. Are you having a problem comprehending my point? Here, I'll try once again. See if you can get it this time. "There have been millions of people who have lived and never even heard of your Jesus of 2000 years ago. Did Jesus die in order to save them or not?

[JimL]

Not answering the question Sparko. Did Jesus die in order to save those that never heard of him?

[Sparko]

Not answering the question Sparko. Did Jesus die in order to save those that never heard of him?

I answered you - read Romans. Jesus sacrifice covers the sin of mankind. All of mankind. It is applied only to those who ask him for salvation.

Basically it is like a prepaid ticket waiting for you to ask for it at the box office. It is there for anyone who asks. But only those who do ask will get it. Anyone who doesn't will pay their own way even though there was a prepaid ticket just waiting for them if they wanted.

In your case you do know about it yet you refuse to accept it. So rather than worry about the "millions who didn't know" you should worry about yourself because you will have no excuse.