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To Reduce Gun Violence, Congress Must Address Mental Health

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I think (and I'm only thinking out loud) that we're not really talking about somebody who would seek help with metal issues on their own -- I think we're talking about somebody seen by others as a threat. In a number of these cases, it's been a parent or relative who has raised a flag of concern.
    It's the perception that worries me. I'm thinking of somebody who isn't going to be a threat and who isn't actually at risk of getting red flagged... still not reaching out due to an abundance of caution.

    I've read a few articles that people who are sexually attracted to children but don't want to act on it, and who recognize it as a severe mental disorder, are generally afraid to reach out to therapists because there have been cases where people have done this and the therapist called the police, resulting in the FBI knocking down the door looking for child porn that wasn't even there, and resulting in the people being disowned by others. (As a result, these people have created their own online communities where they confide only in each other, which can't be the best solution.)
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #32
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      It's the perception that worries me. I'm thinking of somebody who isn't going to be a threat and who isn't actually at risk of getting red flagged... still not reaching out due to an abundance of caution.

      I've read a few articles that people who are sexually attracted to children but don't want to act on it, and who recognize it as a severe mental disorder, are generally afraid to reach out to therapists because there have been cases where people have done this and the therapist called the police, resulting in the FBI knocking down the door looking for child porn that wasn't even there, and resulting in the people being disowned by others. (As a result, these people have created their own online communities where they confide only in each other, which can't be the best solution.)
      And I'm talking about the active shooters about whom numerous people have said "I wasn't surprise at all", where there were numerous encounters with law enforcement, and where schools have had major problems...
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        And I'm talking about the active shooters about whom numerous people have said "I wasn't surprise at all", where there were numerous encounters with law enforcement, and where schools have had major problems...
        Right, I think we both agree that these are the people that the law would actually be used on. What I'm saying is that some people might be afraid the law would be used against them even if that wasn't actually the case, and avoid getting help.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #34
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          Right, I think we both agree that these are the people that the law would actually be used on. What I'm saying is that some people might be afraid the law would be used against them even if that wasn't actually the case, and avoid getting help.
          And, again, I don't think that the person we're really looking at -- a potential active shooter -- would even give a fleeting thought to getting help.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            And, again, I don't think that the person we're really looking at -- a potential active shooter -- would even give a fleeting thought to getting help.
            I'm concerned about somebody who isn't a potential active shooter refusing to get help.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              I'm concerned about somebody who isn't a potential active shooter refusing to get help.
              OK, so think about this.... somebody who is afraid of seeking help because their guns are going to be taken away.... isn't that a red flag already? That the guns are more important than the help?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                OK, so think about this.... somebody who is afraid of seeking help because their guns are going to be taken away.... isn't that a red flag already? That the guns are more important than the help?
                I can see how that could be construed as condescending - not intended at all --- I'm thinking this through as we type.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  Are you arguing that there should be literally no gun prohibitions on a federal level? If so, then prisoners in federal custody would have to be allowed to have them. If you admit even that one exception, the door is opened for others.
                  You may be introducing the question whether there should be any federal laws that involve imprisonment. But to the explicit issue, there may be conventional legal concepts that allow exceptions to rights for those who are imprisoned.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    I can see how that could be construed as condescending - not intended at all --- I'm thinking this through as we type.
                    I don't think you're being condescending. I simply think we have a situation where different rights and needs are in tension and there's no easy solution.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      You may be introducing the question whether there should be any federal laws that involve imprisonment. But to the explicit issue, there may be conventional legal concepts that allow exceptions to rights for those who are imprisoned.
                      The Supreme Court already allows exceptions to the Second Amendment - so far incorporation hasn't resulted in changes at the Federal level - or all that many at the state level...
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        OK, so think about this.... somebody who is afraid of seeking help because their guns are going to be taken away.... isn't that a red flag already? That the guns are more important than the help?
                        Not necessarily - a police officer or someone living in a high crime area might well be concerned without their 'attachment' being an issue.

                        Or it could be a sentimental one to a gift from a loved one - not an obsessive need to have a gun.

                        We have to be careful about calling anything unusual a red flag. It always seems more obvious after the fact - and sometimes we include 'indicators' that really aren't.

                        Excessive play of violent video games - depends on exactly what we mean by 'excessive'. Binged all weekend - probably not. Can't hold down a job because of the need to game - er, yeah, Houston, we have a problem. But finding that line takes a professional.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          The biggest potential problem is that it might deter some people from seeking help with their mental health issues. We have to balance whether that risk is worth the gain, and I don't pretend to have those answers.
                          Which is why we put requirements with teeth - there better be grounds to believe this person is a danger to self or others. If not - or if falsified - licensure will be the least of your worries.

                          There is no perfect solution - but a person so scared that they won't seek help even knowing they have legal protections probably is more a danger to self and that being the putting off of care.

                          I think we might need to look at making it harder to fire someone immediately after they seek care - but there would have to be exceptions even to that.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            Which is why we put requirements with teeth - there better be grounds to believe this person is a danger to self or others. If not - or if falsified - licensure will be the least of your worries.

                            There is no perfect solution - but a person so scared that they won't seek help even knowing they have legal protections probably is more a danger to self and that being the putting off of care.

                            I think we might need to look at making it harder to fire someone immediately after they seek care - but there would have to be exceptions even to that.
                            There's a meme going around claiming that Maryland's red flag law has already been widely abused, but no evidence was provided and it was made by a gun rights activist (who obviously isn't disinterested) so must be taken with a grain of salt.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              There's a meme going around claiming that Maryland's red flag law has already been widely abused, but no evidence was provided and it was made by a gun rights activist (who obviously isn't disinterested) so must be taken with a grain of salt.
                              But to be fair, you wouldn't expect complaints from disinterested parties.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                But to be fair, you wouldn't expect complaints from disinterested parties.
                                That's true.

                                More pertinently, it might be the case that the maker thought that any use of the red flag law would constitute an abuse.

                                In searching, I didn't find any examples of cases that were clear abuses. I did find two or three cases where officers were fired at when attempting to conduct a confiscation.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                                Comment

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