9And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 39:9,10

How do futurists explain the use of wooden weapons?

The bible is clear that the weapons used by Gog and Magog are really wooden and are really burned for fuel.

I am not convinced what is described here could be applied to modern weapons. If you believe this is the case can you identify modern day equivalents that we could easily understand them to represent?

And could those weapons be burnt as fuel?

Will Israel will ever be dependent on forest wood for their fuel?

Is the battle described the battle at Armageddon before the millennium or is it the invasion of Gog and Magog after the millennium? Or do you believe these are the same battle?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I have heard dispensationalists say something like the antichrist will make a peace treaty and cause armies to get rid of their weapons. He will seek to change the times (Dan 7:25). End time armies will therefore go back to primitive weapons. Although I consider myself a futurist, I'm not agreeing with that. I'm just stating what I've heard.

My opinion is that the OT speaks in a figurative way. I explain the weapons with Eph 6:13-17.

My opinion would be that although Ezekiel may be prophesying about a great future battle, it would be important to put this battle in a context with terms that would be easily understood by Ezekiel's intended audience. There wouldn't be much value in stating it thusly:

"And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the kevlar and the OTV's, the M249 LMG's and the ammo, and the M9 9mm, and the FMG-148 ATM's, and they shall burn them with fire seven years"

I don't think that we should take the meaning of this passage at its absolute literal face to mean that some future army will only be armed with wooden weapons.

Michael

Originally posted by Macgawd

My opinion would be that although Ezekiel may be prophesying about a great future battle, it would be important to put this battle in a context with terms that would be easily understood by Ezekiel's intended audience. There wouldn't be much value in stating it thusly:

"And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the kevlar and the OTV's, the M249 LMG's and the ammo, and the M9 9mm, and the FMG-148 ATM's, and they shall burn them with fire seven years"

I don't think that we should take the meaning of this passage at its absolute literal face to mean that some future army will only be armed with wooden weapons.

Michael

If Ezekiel was trying to make the point that the invading armies were going to be well equipped he could have done so without going into specific details about weapons. There was no need to go through the effort of listing specific wooden weapons and general description of the weapons i.e. ‘great’, ‘mighty’ would have been sufficient. What’s more these weapons are actually burnt for fuel and this makes the passage fit the context of an ancient battle.
I mean!
Can you really imagine Israel collecting kevlar and the OTV's, the M249 LMG's and the ammo, and the M9 9mm, and the FMG-148 ATM's for fuel in replacement for wood from the forest?
Is the forest symbolic too?
Why do you choose to interpret it as symbolic?
How far can we take this symbolic interpretation of Ezekiel?
Only as far as symbolism fits with your view?
I think that is probably the case.
If we are to put this battle in the future a literal fulfillment is still the best reading. Don’t you think?

If we are to put this battle in the future a literal fulfillment is still the best reading. Don’t you think?

When you read through Ezekiel, the pattern of empires dealt with follow the pattern of Daniel, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. Ezekiel 38 and 39 actually took place near the end of the Greek occupation of Israel, around 167 BC.

It fulfilled the prophecy of Zechariah 9:13-16, "I will bend Judah as my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior's sword.
Then the Lord will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign Lord will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south, and the Lord Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
The Lord their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown."

This happened around the time of the Maccabees, leading to the Hasmonean Dynasty, when Israel was a free and independant empire, the size of David's and Solomon's between 164 BC and 63 BC, when the Romans invaded.

Hi, I'm Ty

It is clearly an ancient battle with ancient weapons. Unless calvaries are going to be the major tactical force in the future as well.

Originally posted by TyRockwell

If we are to put this battle in the future a literal fulfillment is still the best reading. Don’t you think?

When you read through Ezekiel, the pattern of empires dealt with follow the pattern of Daniel, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. Ezekiel 38 and 39 actually took place near the end of the Greek occupation of Israel, around 167 BC.

It fulfilled the prophecy of Zechariah 9:13-16, "I will bend Judah as my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior's sword.
Then the Lord will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign Lord will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south, and the Lord Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.
The Lord their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown."

This happened around the time of the Maccabees, leading to the Hasmonean Dynasty, when Israel was a free and independant empire, the size of David's and Solomon's between 164 BC and 63 BC, when the Romans invaded.

Hi, I'm Ty

I think the question was about weapons made of wood. When it says Judah will be bent as a bow, does that mean Judah is made of wood? I don't think even a dispensationalist would take that literally. How could Epharim be an arrow? It's a good thing we have Ty who was there to see all of this.

Here is what the Holman Bible Dictionary says about this section of Zechariah.

Chapters 9 through 11 depict God's deliverance of His people in terms of the victory of God and His Messiah over the neighboring peoples, including the Greeks (9:1-10:7), the return of the Exiles (10:6-12), and the punishment of the wicked leaders of Judah (11:4-17).

I didn't realize Messiah fought in the Maccabbean war.

Here is what 16th century commentator Matthew Henry said.

The prophet breaks forth into a joyful representation of the coming of the Messiah, of whom the ancient Jews explained this prophecy. He took the character of their King, when he entered Jerusalem amidst the hosannas of the multitude. But his kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. It shall not be advanced by outward force or carnal weapons. His gospel shall be preached to the world, and be received among the heathen. A sinful state is a state of bondage; it is a pit, or dungeon, in which there is no water, no comfort; and we are all by nature prisoners in this pit. Through the precious blood of Christ, many prisoners of Satan have been set at liberty from the horrible pit in which they must otherwise have perished, without hope or comfort. While we admire Him, let us seek that his holiness and truth may be shown in our own spirits and conduct. These promises have accomplishment in the spiritual blessings of the gospel which we enjoy by Jesus Christ. As the deliverance of the Jews was typical of redemption by Christ, so this invitation speaks to all the language of the gospel call. Sinners are prisoners, but prisoners of hope; their case is sad, but not desperate; for there is hope in Israel concerning them. Christ is a Strong-hold, a strong Tower, in whom believers are safe from the fear of the wrath of God, the curse of the law, and the assaults of spiritual enemies. To him we must turn with lively faith; to him we must flee, and trust in his name under all trials and sufferings. It is here promised that the Lord would deliver his people. This passage also refers to the apostles, and the preachers of the gospel in the early ages. God was evidently with them; his words from their lips pierced the hearts and consciences of the hearers. They were wondrously defended in persecution, and were filled with the influences of the Holy Spirit. They were saved by the Good Shepherd as his flock, and honoured as jewels of his crown. The gifts, graces, and consolations of the Spirit, poured forth on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2 and in succeeding times, are represented. Sharp have been, and still will be, the conflicts of Zion's sons, but their God will give them success. The more we are employed, and satisfied with his goodness, the more we shall admire the beauty revealed in the Redeemer. Whatever gifts God bestows on us, we must serve him cheerfully with them; and, when refreshed with blessings, we must say, How great is his goodness!

It seems to me that the author is clearly describing an ancient battle fought with ancient weapons.

I'm not a futurist, but I guess one futurist approach would be to assume that visionaries, though they may be granted a glimpse of the future, are granted that glimpse not like a cinema, but rather in terms and images they understand and know.

This seems a fairly consistent approach to building a view of how the metaphysics of such things might work.

-Neil

Check these scriptures and see if they're not a clear allusion to Zec 9:9, not a Maccabean war.

Mat 21:5-7
Mark 11:7
Luke 19:30-35
John 12:14-16

To eschaton, and all who have posted in this thread:

Originally posted by eschaton
I think the question was about weapons made of wood. When it says Judah will be bent as a bow, does that mean Judah is made of wood? I don't think even a dispensationalist would take that literally. How could Epharim be an arrow? It's a good thing we have Ty who was there to see all of this.

Its really not hard to understand. Judah was the southern kingdom, and Israel, also known as Ephraim, was the northern kingdom. We are talking about real people, united together and in right relationship with God after their return from Babylonian captivity. Of course God uses people to do his will on earth, and He helps those people who are faithful to Him.
The analogy of Judah as God's bow, and Ephraim his arrow, is metaphor. It is illustrative of the cooperation between the two kingdoms which had been lacking as a result of the split between the northern ten tribes and the southern two. God uses them, and protects them while displaying His power, in judgment on the Greeks for their invasion of God's land and their hostility toward His people. In the Zechariah 9:13-16 passage, Zion is a type of God's kingdom, or stronghold, derived from King David's conquest of an area of Mount Moriah that had been a stronghold of an enemy people. I can't go into the details of these things here, exhaustively. I suggest you consult a good Study Bible for further background; I prefer the NIV Study Bible, but I do use other reference sources as well.

You are well able to decide if you believe that The Holman explanation, or Matthew Henry's is satisfactory to you. Henry's analysis of the passages application to Jesus, the apostles and the new covenant kingdom are acceptable, but in the portion you posted, it lacked its original view towards God's dealings with Isreal, in the time of the Greeks. I only offer an interpretation based upon other scriptures dealing with the times, the prophecies made, those known to be fullfilled, and historically known events. I also use the Holman CSB, and as you cited above, it agrees that the passage has to do with: "the victory of God and His Messiah over the neighboring peoples, including the Greeks (9:1-10:7), the return of the Exiles (10:6-12), and the punishment of the wicked leaders of Judah (11:4-17)." However, I find the explanation somewhat vague, or incomplete. A good portion of of what I've written is derived from unction, and insight, and some of it is yet be verified, historically or archaeologically, but I expect it will be. The reader should look into these things objectively, asking the Lord for wisdom, "Who gives it liberally and upbraideth not,"as the first chapter of James reminds us, and without coming to the issues seeking merely to mock, or be argumentative.

As to the wooden implements of warfare, it is an indicator of the ancient times of the event. Other posters in this thread agree.

You are right that Messiah did not personally fight in the Maccabean war. No one says he did. It says, "The Lord will appear over them." The fact that Zechariah 9 contains the prophecy of Messiah's entrance to Jerusalem "gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey" shows a non-linear time sequence of the passage with which we are dealing. It also implies, non-linearly, that the relationship between God and His people would be such as was needed for His help and defense, and that that relationship would be a part of setting the stage for the coming of Messiah.

I can venture a guess as to why Ezekiel 38-39 was perceived wrongly to be associated with the battle of Armageddon. Primarily, it was assumed to have not yet happened. Then, it was assumed, based upon the valley named "Hamon Gog," means "Hordes of Gog" in Ezekiel 39:11, that it applied to the "Gog and Magog" battle in Rev. 20:8, and connects the battles into one battle. It was really a poor leap, logically, as "Har Megeddon" in Rev. 16:16 means "mountain of Megiddo,"and a valley is not a mountain. Thus going to show that there is plenty of room for improvement on some of the interpretations imposed on prophecy.

Excepting bucklers all those weapons have modern equivalents (arguably, so do bucklers in the form of armor on the arms). Guns don't fare well in fire - almost no stocks or grips would survive it and even the metal would require considerable work to make it serviceable again. In fact few modern weapons would be serviceable after being burned.

Or it could simply mean that the enemy weapons will be destroyed.

It sounds like an analogous reference to defeat to me. Similar to Isaiah referring to the Cross as a tree.

In fact few modern weapons would be serviceable after being burned.

Few modern weapons could be used for fuel for seven years! I think we are talking about a LOT of wood, from let's say, "the Hordes of Gog." A lot of hordes, too.

Or it could simply mean that the enemy weapons will be destroyed.

And more left over for fuel?

It sounds like an analogous reference to defeat to me. Similar to Isaiah referring to the Cross as a tree

I believe the two chapters are literal, except for the "I will put hooks in your jaws," part of verse 4 of chapter 38.

Look at Ezekiel 38:20-21, where it says: "and every wall will fall to the ground. I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord."

In November '07 there was a related archaeological find:

(November 13, 2007)

Image Blocked(Jerusalem)—Last week, archaeologist Dr. Eilat Mazar announced she had discovered remnants of the fifth century B.C. wall built by Nehemiah. She is reportedly urging Christians to help save the site. (Photo: present day wall in Jerusalem-WND)

According to a WorldNetDaily report, Mazar was working on an emergency project to shore up remains of an ancient tower when, she says: "Under the tower, we found the bones of two large dogs—and under those bones a rich assemblage of pottery and finds from the Persian period. No later finds from that period were found under the tower.

Nehemiah rebuilt Jerusalem and the temple, and a wall around them, along with Zerrubabel, after King Cyrus of Persia released Israel, by decree, to return to their land with the articles taken from the Temple of Jerusalem at the time of the Babylonian invasion, the city's and temple's destruction, and the taking captive of the surviving Isrealites.

The decree was prophesied beforehand, Daniel 9:25. The decree can be read in full in Ezra 1 and Ezra 6. The rebuilding is told in both Ezra and Nehemiah. It will be interesting to see what else of scripture remains to be discovered by archaeologists.

And I see nothing there that eliminates the metaphoric interpretation. As to the literal, count in tanks and other vehicles and long term burns are possible - ever try to put out a tire fire? Tire dumps can burn for weeks - wonder how long all the weapons of such a gigantic cataclysm would take?

Given a seven year duration then modern weapons with their multiple fuel sources and petroleum based parts are far more likely to take so long to burn than wooden weapons will ever be. Bows, arrows, spears and javelins are basically kindling with some fuel wood thrown in. Bucklers and pole arms are small fuel wood. Shields already broken won't take long to burn - something between tinder and fuel depending on how busted up they are. The only reason wooden weapons would burn particularly long is because a massive mound would create charcoal under itself - no visible flames but it would take quite a while.

The whole problem I have with the interpreting the OT as referring to modern weapons is it is a method of private interpretation and denies the words of Jesus (2 Peter 1:20). So does inconsistent interpretation that says one verse is about ancient battles and the next is about Jesus. Jesus said the OT scriptures were about Him (John 5:39, Luke 24:27,44). Interpreting in such an inconsistent "non-linear" way takes any sort of design or purpose out of the scriptures, and that is what God is supposed to be about. Not only that, it makes the Bible a laughing stock to skeptics who see that such an interpretation is totally ambiguous and subject to the unverifiable whim of the imagination of the interpreter, and that it can't be confirmed in history.

The Bible shouldn't be a playgroung subject to whatever the interpreter wants it to mean. That is post modern interpretation. Instead we should find interpretation consistent with the words of Jesus and the apostles, and the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3). It should be an interpretation that is in line with the early saints and martyrs, not the modern televangelist watcher who reads the verse once and declares what it means like an oracle. I can provide interpretation about these things from the ECF if anybody in interested, or they can find it for themselves. What can be accepted as truth isn't different from what was taught to the early church in the apostolic tradition.

Jesus said the OT scriptures were about Him (John 5:39,Luke 24:27,44). Interpreting in such an inconsistent "non-linear" way takes any sort of design or purpose out of the scriptures

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the glory of kings to search them out."