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Where In The Gospel is Muhammad? Sura 7:157
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Narnian is offline
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 07:32 AM
 
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Muslims, I invite you to answer this.

Quran 007:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find written in the Torah and the Gospel

Where is the refernce to Muhammd in the gospel? Remember, the Quran says there is no errors in it, so it must be there.

 
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 07:39 AM
 
In reply to this post by Narnian
 
 
 
I know you opened this thread to divert attention from my latest topic. Too bad that I won't be participating here. On the bright side though, once I'm done with my new thread, I'll open another topic dealing with Muhammad(saw)'s prediction in the Gospels. Till then, be patient.

 
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 09:02 AM
 
In reply to this post by Narnian
 
 
 
Muslims, I invite you to answer this.

Quran 007:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find written in the Torah and the Gospel

Where is the refernce to Muhammd in the gospel? Remember, the Quran says there is no errors in it, so it must be there.
interestingly I must point out that the quran actually says "described in" not "written" in

7:157 those who shall follow the [last] Apostle, the unlettered Prophet whom they shall find described in the Torah that is with them, and [later on] in the Gospel: [124] [the Prophet] who will enjoin upon them the doing of what is right and forbid them the doing of what is wrong, and make lawful to them the good things of life and forbid them the bad things, and lift from them their burdens and the shackles that were upon them [aforetime]. [125] Those, therefore, who shall believe in him, and honour him, and succour him, and follow the light that has been bestowed from on high through him-it is they that shall attain to a happy state."

 
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 09:24 AM
 
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interestingly I must point out that the quran actually says "described in" not "written" in
So which verse is Muhammad "described in"? I am still waiting.

And BTW the arabic word is maktooban from KITAB - written;

007:157
‏7:157 الذين يتبعون الرسول النبي الامي الذي يجدونه مكتوبا عندهم في التوراة والانجيل يامرهم بالمعروف وينهاهم عن

 
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"A man who professes an external law is like someone standing in the light of a lantern fixed to a post. It is light all round him, but there is nowhere further for to walk. A man who professes the teachings of Christ is like a man carrying a lantern before him on a long, or not so long, pole; the light is in front of him, always lighting up fresh ground and always encouraging him to walk further." Leo Tolstoy
 
 
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 03:25 PM
 
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So which verse is Muhammad "described in"? I am still waiting.

And BTW the arabic word is maktooban from KITAB - written;

007:157
‏7:157 الذين يتبعون الرسول النبي الامي الذي يجدونه مكتوبا عندهم في التوراة والانجيل يامرهم بالمعروف وينهاهم عن
I stand corrected about "kitab" - it coudl be interpreted as "written" (or recorded, even if the 'recording' was by God)

remember the Injeel is not the written "gospels"

Jesus did not come to bring us the books that wrote about what he said, but rather, what he said.

so you should not be asking for 'verses'

 
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 10:13 PM
 
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remember the Injeel is not the written "gospels"
Yes, we can say that Jesus IS the gospel. But nowhere in the Quran does it say that. It says WRITTEN. In the 7th century AD, what is known as the written gospel had already been canonised for 300 years or more. Remember that the Quran says of itself that it is perfect and without error. Now why would it say WRITTEN if it was really "oral"?

Either it is a mistake OR we are yet to find this verse. Where is it?

 
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"A man who professes an external law is like someone standing in the light of a lantern fixed to a post. It is light all round him, but there is nowhere further for to walk. A man who professes the teachings of Christ is like a man carrying a lantern before him on a long, or not so long, pole; the light is in front of him, always lighting up fresh ground and always encouraging him to walk further." Leo Tolstoy
 
 
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Old
  July 1st 2008 , 11:09 PM
 
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Yes, we can say that Jesus IS the gospel.
or his gospel is a gospel.

Now why would it say WRITTEN if it was really "oral"?

Either it is a mistake OR we are yet to find this verse. Where is it?
the verb Kataba does not mean only 'to write' as in the verb "to write" in English, as evidence by its usage elsewhere in the quran

to interpret the quran by taking an english rendering literally will always lack some of the original meaning

Kaf-Ta-Ba = he wrote it (to write), to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed, drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law), mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ, revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.



anyway, even if you take it as 'written about', it does not explicitly have to mention Muhammad by name (i.e. the "Paraclete" verse) for the narrator of the Quran to assert it referred to Muhammad.

You can disagree and that's your right.

 
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Old
  July 2nd 2008 , 09:06 PM
 
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Jesus Christ Himself IS the Gospel, period. He did not come to 'bring an Injeel, to be given to His followers'! THAT is islamic polemics read back into and superimposed on to the Gospel.

Also known as eisegesis and mis-representing the scriptures.

And the re-interpreting for the greek rendering of 'paraclete' to suit islamic thought and polemics is also totally unjustified.

Muslim 'arguments' that 'paraclete' can point to Muhamad have already been addressed LONG AGO, and demolished / debunked, here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/comforter.htm

and here :

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index...eriklutos.html

Dan.

 
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Old
  July 2nd 2008 , 11:27 PM
 
 
 
 
Jesus Christ Himself IS the Gospel, period.

thanks for sharing your views

 
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Old
  July 3rd 2008 , 04:07 PM
 
smile
In reply to this post by Narnian
Last edited by mudcake : July 3rd 2008 at 04:13 PM .  
 
 
Muslims, I invite you to answer this.

Quran 007:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find written in the Torah and the Gospel

Where is the refernce to Muhammd in the gospel? Remember, the Quran says there is no errors in it, so it must be there.
Some Muslims and non Muslims make an inaccurate assumption by defining the expression ‘Torah’ and injil used in the Quranic scriptures to restrictively mean the canonical OT and the Greek NT

The term “Torah” does not necessarily mean a specific Jewish writing. It is used to refer to the entire corpus of Jewish writings - canonical, non-canonical, Talmud etc. - as well as the oral traditions.

Rabbinic scholar Solomon Schecter:

"It must first be stated that the term Law or Nomos is not a correct rendering of the Hebrew word Torah. The legalistic element, which might rightly be called the Law, represents only one side of the Torah. To the Jew the word Torah means a teaching or an instruction of any kind. It may be either a general principle or a specific injunction, whether it be found in the Pentateuch or in other parts of the Scriptures, or even outside of the canon. The juxtaposition in which Torah and Mizwoth, Teaching and Commandments, are to be found in the Rabbinic literature, implies already that the former means something more than merely the Law (e.g b. Ber 31a; b. Makk 23a; m. Abot 3.11). Torah and Mitzvoth are a complement to each other, or, as a Rabbi expressed it, "they borrow from each other, as wisdom and understanding - charity and lovingkindness--the moon and the stars," but they are not identical. To use the modern phraseology, to the Rabbinic Jew, Torah was both an institution and a faith. "

Dictionary of Judaism in the Biblical Period

"In rabbinic literature, the word 'Torah' bears seven meanings: (1) the written Torah; (2) the one whole Torah, oral and written, revealed by God to Moses at Sinai; (3) a particular thing, such as a scroll, containing divinely revealed words; (4) revelation in general; (5) a classification or rules, as in 'the torah of…,' meaning 'the rules that govern ….'; (6) the act of studying the Torah; and (7) the status of teaching, namely, deriving from the Torah, as against deriving from the scribes."



The descriptions of prophecies about Muhammad referenced in the hadith literature are not found in the canonical OT scriptures; however that is not to say he was not prophesized in the 'Torah'. The Hadith literature mention how certain people believed in the prophethood of Muhammad and converted to Islam based on certain prophecies he fulfilled.

There were Jewish tribes during Muhammad’s era that were expecting a specific prophet to appear in Arabia. What traditions/literature/prophecies were the Jewish tribes referring to that led them to believe a true prophet was to appear in their mist from Arabia?

Where/what are these prophecies that were used/cited by companions of muhammad such as Abdullah ibn salam ( Who was a Rabbi that converted to Islam) and Salman the Persian that are not contained in the canonical OT scriptures ? For example Salman the Persian, before he embraced Islam was told by a Christian that time has come near when the last of all Prophets will appear, who will follow the religion of Abraham. He will be born in ` Arabia '. He will migrate to such a place where many dates grow and on both sides of this place the soil is stony. The Prophet will accept gifts, but will not eat from Charity. The Seal of Prophethood will be between his two shoulders.

These prophecies and descriptions are not found in the Greek NT gospels, which means the hadith literarture is referring to other gospel tradiions that were existent in the Arabian peninsula.


The Quran mentions that the Jews concealed/removed and hid these prophecies about Muhammad from the Muslims, which leads me to believe that the ‘Torah’ that is referred by the Quran and hadith Literature is not necessarily the today’s Jewish/Christian bible.

The early Muslims took any piece of information/report acquired from the Jews or known to be linked with Judaism as emanating from the “torah”. If they came to learn of something which was actually within, say, the Midrashic literature, such as the Halakha or the Talmud or Aggadah they would say, “the Torah says…” Similarly, when they reported any Jewish tradition that they had heard of, whether it be actually oral or coming from a non-canonical document etc., they would likewise simply say, “the Torah says…”

The Quran was used as a measure of truth in verifying/confirming or contradicting/nullifying/abrogating the ‘Torah’ or scriptures/literature used by the Jews to determine what was true revelation of God from that which was falsified and corrupted.

Nowhere is it explicitly mentioned or implied that the Quran and Hadith literature interpreted the expression ‘torah’ or injeel to mean/ refer to the current day Jewish OT Bible, or the Greek NT as wrongly claimed/assumed by Christian and Jewish apologetics.... ..

 
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Old
  July 4th 2008 , 02:55 AM
 
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My view it is NOT...Christ Jesus Himself already declared that if you will only remove your islamic BLINKERS to study His claims for yourself.

Tou forget to quote me in full :- Jesus did not come to 'bring an Injeel, to be given to His followers'! THAT is islamic polemics read back into and superimposed on to the Gospel.

Also known as eisegesis and mis-representing the scriptures.

And the re-interpreting for the greek rendering of 'paraclete' to suit islamic thought and polemics is also totally unjustified.

Muslim 'arguments' that 'paraclete' can point to Muhamad have already been addressed LONG AGO.

Dan.

thanks for sharing your views

 
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Old
  July 4th 2008 , 05:30 AM
 
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These prophecies and descriptions are not found in the Greek NT gospels, which means the hadith literarture is referring to other gospel tradiions that were existent in the Arabian peninsula.
It is the Quran that says Muhammad is found written down in the gospel.

The Quran mentions that the Jews concealed/removed and hid these prophecies about Muhammad from the Muslims, which leads me to believe that the ‘Torah’ that is referred by the Quran and hadith Literature is not necessarily the today’s Jewish/Christian bible.
The Torah was canonised in 200BC. The Quran was written between 700-800BC, ie a 1000 years later. So the "Torah" it refers to can only be that one.

Nowhere is it explicitly mentioned or implied that the Quran and Hadith literature interpreted the expression ‘torah’ or injeel to mean/ refer to the current day Jewish OT Bible, or the Greek NT as wrongly claimed/assumed by Christian and Jewish apologetics
This is a logical fallacy called proof by lack of evidence. Why would it tell you that you can find Muhammad written in a book that no longer exists? The Quran says it is "clear" so, for one, why would it refer to a gospel noone knows about. Secondly, since the Quran was supposedly "dictated" some 400 plus years after it was canonised, so, in 700AD, the "Injeel" as it was known then, was certain to be the Nicene version of the "injeel". Otherwise the "clear" Quran would have specified that it was another injeel that noone has ever read or found.

I will see if you can answer my rebuttal before I continue

 
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Old
  July 4th 2008 , 08:46 PM
 
 
 
 
My view it is NOT...Christ Jesus Himself already declared that if you will only remove your islamic BLINKERS to study His claims for yourself.
Where does Jesus say He is the Gospel?

 
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Old
  July 4th 2008 , 08:56 PM
 
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[quote=Narnian;2376874]It The Quran was written between 700-800BC,

The Qur'an was written 700-800 B.C.? LOL

The Qur'an was composed betwen 610-632 A.D. It took its present arrangement and form before 656 A.D.

 
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Old
  July 4th 2008 , 09:13 PM
 
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The Torah was canonised in 200BC. The Quran was written between 700-800BC, ie a 1000 years later. So the "Torah" it refers to can only be that one.
Not in Judaism. Torah does not only mean "the torah scrolls" or "the written torah".

It means teaching/law/instruction



i.e. "THE LAW" in the new testament scriptures

 
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Old
  July 4th 2008 , 10:01 PM
 
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Not in Judaism. Torah does not only mean "the torah scrolls" or "the written torah".
It means teaching/law/instruction
Well the Quran meant the WRITTEN Torah.

Quran 007:157 Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find written in the Torah and the Gospel

Still waiting to find where Muhammad is WRITTEN

The Qur'an was composed betwen 610-632 A.D. It took its present arrangement and form before 656 A.D.
Red Herring. It was STILL written centuries AFTER the written Torah and the Gospel were canonized.

 
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