hey when all else fails, throw context right out the window. Good job Collier.

sheesh.


and looking up the passage about satan, I believe the greek just has Theos, not ho Theos there.

but context be damned!

Originally posted by Collier

I’ve been away from this thread for awhile, so I’ve been rereading previous posts to refresh my memory. There are a couple of points that have not been addressed, I think.



So: "Scripture is clear that there is only one God (‘o theos) and that Greek term is used to describe the Father, Son, and Spirit in the passages I already cited."

Add Satan to that list. He is called “the god (‘o theos) of this world” (2 Co. 4:4).

Do you believe that title makes Satan the “one God”?

Where do you see satan referenced in this verse? Or in this chapter? Or the preceeding one?

This is what Paul was referring to in Romans 11:8-10. 'o theos is God.

Originally posted by Sparko

hey when all else fails, throw context right out the window. Good job Collier.

sheesh.


and looking up the passage about satan, I believe the greek just has Theos, not ho Theos there.

but context be damned!

Actually, Sparko, it does have 'o theos, but the word "satan" is nowhere to be found in 2 Cor. 4.

why then does it say "the god of this age" instead of just "God"?

I will check my commentaries when I get home but from what I remember, most of them think it is referring to satan. I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Sparko

why then does it say "the god of this age" instead of just "God"?

I will check my commentaries when I get home but from what I remember, most of them think it is referring to satan. I could be wrong.

The Greek is actually ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου (ho theos to aionos toutou) and is translated the God of the age. In the Septuagint, nearly identical phrases appear twice:

the God of the age (ho theos to aionos) …" Daniel 5:4

the God of the ages (ho theos ton aionon)." Sirach 36:17


And see the parallel places, Mat_13:14, Mat_13:15; Mar_4:12; Joh_12:40; and particularly Rom_11:8-10 : God Hath Given Them the Spirit of Slumber, Eyes that they Should not See, and Ears that they Should not Hear; let their Eyes be Darkened, etc. Now all this is spoken of the same people, in the same circumstances of wilful rebellion and obstinate unbelief; and the great God of heaven and earth is he who judicially blinds their eyes; makes their hearts fat, i.e. stupid; gives them the spirit of slumber: and bows down their back, etc. On these very grounds it is exceedingly likely that the apostle means the true God by the words the god of this world.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible


Many commentaries do believe this to be satan, and base it on Jesus calling him the ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου or "prince of this world", but notice this is not the same as ὁ θεὸς, and Jesus declared in John 12 that the prince would be cast out at the crucifixion. It makes more sense in Paul's flow to identify the one blinding the proud unbelievers as God Himself


HOWEVER....

It could just as adequately describe satan as he is the sole god who rules over unbelievers. I'd have no qualms with either interpretation, and the early church fathers were divided over Paul's meaning here. Either contextually fits fine. 'o theos means the sole authority in that kingdom, whether that of light (Jehovah) or that of darkness (satan)

thanks. it does make sense.

Originally posted by Sparko

why then does it say "the god of this age" instead of just "God"?

I will check my commentaries when I get home but from what I remember, most of them think it is referring to satan. I could be wrong.

The Jerusalem Bible definitely thinks it refers to Satan. So does the NIV Study Bible. And the Greek term is definitely ho theos.

But you are right about CONTEXT, Sparko. The CONTEXT is the key.

And the context of Hebrews 1:8 is Messiah's earthly throne. Not the throne in heaven, on which sits Yahweh, God Almighty (Rev. 4 and 5), but the throne of the Messiah, who reigns in submission to God the Father (1 Co. 15:24 - 28).

God has appointed his Son HEIR OF ALL (v. 2). Because the Son loves righteousness and hates iniquity, HIS GOD has anointed him with the oil of joy "above his fellows" (v. 9). Unlike that of his "fellows," his throne is for ever.

By the way, The Lord Jesus calls Satan "the ruler (ho archon) of this world" (John 12:31). But "the ruler of this world will be cast out."

The same Greek word is used of Christ in Rev. 3:14: He is "the ruler of the creation of God." But unlike that of all other rulers, his rule will never end.

Collier,
Would you please explain to me who "the Amen" is in Revelation 3:14

Originally posted by jbgwatney

Collier,
Would you please explain to me who "the Amen" is in Revelation 3:14

As you are well aware (and therefore need not ask), he is identified in ch. 1:5. He is "Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the firstborn from the dead, the Ruler of the kings of the earth". Ch. 3:14 adds to the description: He is "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God's creation."

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: rogue06

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Originally posted by Bill the Cat

The Greek is actually ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου (ho theos to aionos toutou) and is translated the God of the age. In the Septuagint, nearly identical phrases appear twice:

the God of the age (ho theos to aionos) …" Daniel 5:4

the God of the ages (ho theos ton aionon)." Sirach 36:17

I have a copy of the Septuagint. Daniel 5:4 doesn’t seem to have anything like this. Instead, it speaks of “the gods of gold and of silver ... “ [Bible Gateway gives the same thing when you click on the verse.]

Sirach isn’t in my copy of the Septuagint, so I clicked on the verse you supplied. This is what Bible Gateway gives:
“17 Give testimony to them that are thy creatures from the beginning, and raise up the prophecies which the former prophets spoke in thy name.”

What verses did you actually have in mind?

Originally posted by nrajeff

• Edited by a Moderator •

That was just... bad.

Originally posted by Collier

I have a copy of the Septuagint. Daniel 5:4 doesn’t seem to have anything like this. Instead, it speaks of “the gods of gold and of silver ... “ [Bible Gateway gives the same thing when you click on the verse.]

Sirach isn’t in my copy of the Septuagint, so I clicked on the verse you supplied. This is what Bible Gateway gives:
“17 Give testimony to them that are thy creatures from the beginning, and raise up the prophecies which the former prophets spoke in thy name.”

What verses did you actually have in mind?

I got my info from this paper. it seems to be a variant reading of Daniel he references.

http://www.rctr.org/journal/8.pdf

Interesting too that this online Septuagint (http://www.bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/27_005.htm) is different from mine in e-Sword.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

I got my info from this paper. it seems to be a variant reading of Daniel he references.

http://www.rctr.org/journal/8.pdf

Interesting too that this online Septuagint (http://www.bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/27_005.htm) is different from mine in e-Sword.

Thanks, Bill. I was quite sure you hadn't made it up; I just thought it was a typo. But it is a little disconcerting to find such variations in Septuagint texts. Mine is quite different.

In any case, a statement in your earlier post caught my attention:

It could just as adequately describe satan as he is the sole god who rules over unbelievers. I'd have no qualms with either interpretation, and the early church fathers were divided over Paul's meaning here. Either contextually fits fine. 'o theos means the sole authority in that kingdom, whether that of light (Jehovah) or that of darkness (satan)

Agreed. And the god (ho theos) of this world can delegate his authority to his vassals, in a way that mimics Yahweh’s delegation of authority to those who rule on his behalf.

In Revelation 13:2-5, the dragon (identified as Satan in ch. 12:9) delegates his power and authority over “the whole world” to the beast. [The beast is the final “antichrist” – the Messiah’s last opponent - the devil’s counterfeit.]

That helps in understanding the devil’s offer to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth, if only he would bow down and worship him as the god [ho theos] of this world. By that wrongful act of worship, Jesus would no longer have been the Messiah of Yahweh, but the anti-messiah of Satan.

As usual, Satan’s lie is wrapped in partial truth. He WAS able to give his authority over the kingdoms of earth to whomever he would. He’s going to do just that in a coming day.

But Jesus, by dying, won the kingdoms of the universe WITHOUT becoming Satan’s vassal. He is the faithful and true witness. And Satan is a defeated foe.

Originally posted by Alsharad

That was just... bad.

I know, I tried to delete it but was too late. Sorry.

Originally posted by nrajeff

I know, I tried to delete it but was too late. Sorry.

No worries.