Collier, god the father is a spirit, right? he has no body or blood, right?

Then explain this verse to me
acts 20:28
...Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Originally posted by Collier

I hope you don’t mind if we look at these one at a time.

You didn't finish the quotation in Hebrews. The rest is:
"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

The Son’s God calls his Son, “God,” giving him an everlasting throne and anointing him with the oil of joy BEYOND HIS COMPANIONS.

So – who were the Son’s companions?

Hebrews 2 tells you. Did you read that part? Also, does Jesus having companions somehow rule out his ontology as deity?

God called the judges/leaders in Israel “gods” (John 10:34; Psalm 82:6). God made Moses a god (Ex. 7:1) And the Hebrew word translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and Ex. 22:8-9, is “elohim” (gods).

So were the leaders of Israel YHWHs? Was Moses a YHWH? Were the judges YHWHs?

Peter tells us in Acts 2:36 that “God has made this same Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ (the anointed)”. He anointed him with “the oil of gladness beyond his companions,” because he loved righteousness and hated iniquity – something that all those other gods never did.

What does "made" mean?

Jesus has been MADE both Lord and Christ. All authority has been GIVEN to him (Mt. 28:18). Who gave it to him? HIS GOD – the “one God” whom Paul and Jesus and Peter all identify as the Father.

How does Jesus being given authority argue against his ontology?

Originally posted by Collier

I hope you don’t mind if we look at these one at a time.

You didn't finish the quotation in Hebrews. The rest is:
"You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

The Son’s God calls his Son, “God,” giving him an everlasting throne and anointing him with the oil of joy BEYOND HIS COMPANIONS.

So – who were the Son’s companions?

This was a Psalm which was said over the rulers of Israel, God's people. In the Psalm, it was previous kings that were the "companions". The same is true here in Hebrews. The former rulers of God's people were Jesus' companions.

God called the judges/leaders in Israel “gods” (John 10:34; Psalm 82:6). God made Moses a god (Ex. 7:1) And the Hebrew word translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and Ex. 22:8-9, is “elohim” (gods).

Becaue the semantic range of the Hebrew word elohim (god, judge, ruler) is far greater than the Greek 'o theos (the God)

Peter tells us in Acts 2:36 that “God has made this same Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ (the anointed)”. He anointed him with “the oil of gladness beyond his companions,” because he loved righteousness and hated iniquity – something that all those other gods never did.

Jesus has been MADE both Lord and Christ. All authority has been GIVEN to him (Mt. 28:18). Who gave it to him? HIS GOD – the “one God” whom Paul and Jesus and Peter all identify as the Father.

Yet, Jesus is called God ('o theos) here in Hebrews. It is the same term used of God in John 1:1 and 38 other places. Other than here in this verse and 2Co 4:4 where it is used of the god of this world (indicating the supremacy of satan in the world), it is used exclusively of the Father.

Originally posted by ApologiaPhoenix

No. You've made the assertion. I'm asking you how you know it refers to a unipersonal being rather than a tri-personal being. All you've done is repeat your assertion that that's the case.

When Jesus used the title God , he was not talking about a "tri-personal being". He was talking about someone distinct from himself – someone who was his God; someone who sent him; someone who gave him life; someone who told him what to say and what to do; someone whom he loved; someone whose will he delighted to do.

Specifically, he was talking about the Father; and he uses the two titles Father and God synonymously. If you take the time to read through the Gospel by John, that should convince you.

Peter used the word God in the same way. Look at the five gospel messages Peter gave, according to Luke’s account in Acts:

(Acts 2:22-40) God publicly accredited Jesus by the mighty works he did through Jesus. God raised Jesus from the dead and exalted him to his own right hand. God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

(Acts 3:12-26) The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob glorified his servant Jesus [so the God of Israel was not a “tri-personal being”]. And the same God will send Jesus, the Christ, when the time comes for the restoration of all things.

(Acts 4:8-12) By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom God raised from the dead, the lame man was made perfectly whole; and salvation is found in no one else.

(Acts 5:29-32) God raised Jesus from the dead. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior, that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

(Acts 10:34-43) [To Cornelius] You know the message God sent ... how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went about doing good, because God was with him. God raised him from the dead. He is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead, and everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

In every case, the word God is obviously understood to be separate and distinct from Jesus, and therefore does not refer to a tri-personal being.

What reasons do you have for thinking the word EVER refers to a tri-personal being?

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

This was a Psalm which was said over the rulers of Israel, God's people. In the Psalm, it was previous kings that were the "companions". The same is true here in Hebrews. The former rulers of God's people were Jesus' companions..

Exactly!!

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Becaue the semantic range of the Hebrew word elohim (god, judge, ruler) is far greater than the Greek 'o theos (the God)

And they were called "gods" (theos) in John 10:34.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Yet, Jesus is called God ('o theos) here in Hebrews. It is the same term used of God in John 1:1 and 38 other places. Other than here in this verse and 2Co 4:4 where it is used of the god of this world (indicating the supremacy of satan in the world), it is used exclusively of the Father

This is a good point, and thank you. Satan is a usurper. He is presently the god of this world, but he is going to be supplanted by the one whom God has appointed judge, the one to whom God has given an everlasting kingdom.

That has a direct bearing on Philippians 2:6 - “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.” Satan DID grasp at equality with God. He wanted to BE God. Jesus, on the other hand, even though he was the Son of God and therefore fully divine, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. He was content to acknowledge that “my Father is greater than I”.

Originally posted by ApologiaPhoenix

Hebrews 2 tells you. Did you read that part? Also, does Jesus having companions somehow rule out his ontology as deity?

So were the leaders of Israel YHWHs? Was Moses a YHWH? Were the judges YHWHs?

NO. That is EXACTLY THE POINT!!

Originally posted by Collier

When Jesus used the title God , he was not talking about a "tri-personal being". He was talking about someone distinct from himself – someone who was his God; someone who sent him; someone who gave him life; someone who told him what to say and what to do; someone whom he loved; someone whose will he delighted to do.

As a Trinitarian, I affirm all of that. Please tell me how that goes against the Trinity.

Specifically, he was talking about the Father; and he uses the two titles Father and God synonymously. If you take the time to read through the Gospel by John, that should convince you.

I just got done doing a series of writings on the gospel of John on the Trinity where I did note just that.

Peter used the word God in the same way. Look at the five gospel messages Peter gave, according to Luke’s account in Acts:

(Acts 2:22-40) God publicly accredited Jesus by the mighty works he did through Jesus. God raised Jesus from the dead and exalted him to his own right hand. God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

I agree. No problem.

(Acts 3:12-26) The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob glorified his servant Jesus [so the God of Israel was not a “tri-personal being”]. And the same God will send Jesus, the Christ, when the time comes for the restoration of all things.

Just wrote on this one also. The problem is that you're assuming that if you're a Trinitarian, any time the text says God, you must put in "Trinity." It doesn't follow. This is a modern way of thinking. The ancients would have no problem with the thought of one person in the divine identity addressing another.

(Acts 4:8-12) By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom God raised from the dead, the lame man was made perfectly whole; and salvation is found in no one else.

(Acts 5:29-32) God raised Jesus from the dead. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior, that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

(Acts 10:34-43) [To Cornelius] You know the message God sent ... how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went about doing good, because God was with him. God raised him from the dead. He is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead, and everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

In every case, the word God is obviously understood to be separate and distinct from Jesus, and therefore does not refer to a tri-personal being.

I have no problem with any of that.

What reasons do you have for thinking the word EVER refers to a tri-personal being?

No Collier. You made a knowledge claim that nowhere in the OT does it refer to a triune being. I'm asking you how you know that.

As for your agreement that those being called a god does not make them YHWH, well please tell me then why I should think YHWH is any sort of deity in the OT since he's called that also?

Originally posted by Sparko

Collier, god the father is a spirit, right? he has no body or blood, right?

Then explain this verse to me
acts 20:28
...Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

The Jerusalem Bible (a very good Catholic translation) gives this note:

"A difficult phrase sometimes rendered 'acquired by him at the price of his own son’, cf. Rm. 8:32; Jn. 3:16. But we may see underlying the expression a certain flexibility of thought, since the work of the Father (= ‘God’) and of the Son is so inseparably one (cf., for example, Rm. 8:31-39). For the doctrine, cf. Eph. 5:25-27; Heb. 9:12-14; Heb. 13:12.”

I find that explanation totally satisfying, especially after reading all the references. God (the Father) bought the church with the blood of his own Son. God was IN his Son, reconciling the world to himself BY MEANS (dia) of his Son, through the power of His Holy Spirit.

That is the biblical trinity, I believe. God is not tri-une; but he accomplishes all his purposes by means of his Son, through the power of his Spirit.

Originally posted by Collier

The Jerusalem Bible (a very good Catholic translation) gives this note:

"A difficult phrase sometimes rendered 'acquired by him at the price of his own son’, cf. Rm. 8:32; Jn. 3:16. But we may see underlying the expression a certain flexibility of thought, since the work of the Father (= ‘God’) and of the Son is so inseparably one (cf., for example, Rm. 8:31-39). For the doctrine, cf. Eph. 5:25-27; Heb. 9:12-14; Heb. 13:12.”

I find that explanation totally satisfying, especially after reading all the references. God (the Father) bought the church with the blood of his own Son. God was IN his Son, reconciling the world to himself BY MEANS (dia) of his Son, through the power of His Holy Spirit.

That is the biblical trinity, I believe. God is not tri-une; but he accomplishes all his purposes by means of his Son, through the power of his Spirit.

so you just hunt around till you find someone that can explain it away and feel satisfied?

You realize that Catholics believe in the Trinity, correct? So why don't you believe THAT? They are saying that the Son and Father are inseperable, meaning that they are ONE. So much so that the Son's blood is the Father's blood. It does not contradict the idea of the Trinity, it supports it.

The words in Greek are:

Ho Idios Haima

Which means

HIS OWN BLOOD. Literealy

This sometimes rendered nonsense is just that. The greek literally says "his own blood"
God's own blood. Jesus is God.

Originally posted by ApologiaPhoenix

No Collier. You made a knowledge claim that nowhere in the OT does it refer to a triune being. I'm asking you how you know that.

Are you agreeing, then, that the word never refers to a triune being in the NT?

Originally posted by ApologiaPhoenix

As for your agreement that those being called a god does not make them YHWH, well please tell me then why I should think YHWH is any sort of deity in the OT since he's called that also?

Perhaps you should look at a Hebrew lexicon and find out how the word “elohim” is used. I think Bill, the Cat, has done that.

YHWH is the NAME of the only true God. Paul admits that there are many gods; but then he says, “For us, there is one God, the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

For me, too, "there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come, and for whom we exist; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things come and through whom we exist." (Jerusalem Bible, emphasis added)

That sums it up perfectly.

[quote=Sparko;2721713] You realize that Catholics believe in the Trinity, correct? So why don't you believe THAT? They are saying that the Son and Father are inseperable, meaning that they are ONE. So much so that the Son's blood is the Father's blood. It does not contradict the idea of the Trinity, it supports it.QUOTE]

You should read the note again. It says the work of the Father (= ‘God’) and of the Son is inseparably one. So God is the Father - not a triune being.

Originally posted by Collier

Are you agreeing, then, that the word never refers to a triune being in the NT?

No, but I'm amused that you're still dodging the question I'm asking. You're stating it never refers to a tri-personal being in the OT. How do you kno wthat?

Perhaps you should look at a Hebrew lexicon and find out how the word “elohim” is used. I think Bill, the Cat, has done that.

You assume I haven't....

All I'm saying at this point is that YHWH is called Elohim at times. How do I know YHWH isn't just a god?

YHWH is the NAME of the only true God. Paul admits that there are many gods; but then he says, “For us, there is one God, the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

If for us there is one God, then there are not many gods. Polytheism has no place in Christianity.

[quote] For me, too, "there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come, and for whom we exist; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things come and through whom we exist." (Jerusalem Bible, emphasis added)



Yes it does, especially since this is a Christianized version of the Shema where Jesus is being included in the divine identity. Get a copy of Richard Bauckham's "God Crucified" to see this.

Originally posted by ApologiaPhoenix

No, but I'm amused that you're still dodging the question I'm asking. You're stating it never refers to a tri-personal being in the OT. How do you kno wthat?.

My original statement has become a bit twisted. What I said in Post 32 was, ‘I cannot find a single verse in which the word "God" refers to more than one person.’

Post 36 has this clarification: ‘I cannot find a verse in the Bible in which the title "God" refers to a plurality. If God is actually three persons, surely there should be ONE verse in which the word is used that way. I can't find one, and you haven't given one.’ [That is still true.]

I am reasonably certain that there is no such verse in the NT. One counterexample on your part would prove me wrong. If you can’t give one, I can assume there isn’t one. And the doctrine of tri-unity is supposed to be a NT doctrine.

As for the OT, Peter says in Acts 3:13, “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.”

So the God of Israel [the “one YHWH” of the Shema], is separate and distinct from Jesus. Jesus in the OT is the servant of YHWH, the Son of YHWH, the anointed of YHWH.

So my original statement stands. I cannot find a verse in the Bible in which the word “God” refers to a plurality. And you haven’t given me one.

Originally posted by ApologiaPhoenix

All I'm saying at this point is that YHWH is called Elohim at times. How do I know YHWH isn't just a god?

If you don’t know he isn’t just a god, I’m afraid I can’t help you.

I think this is interesting because the book of mormon acctually affirms the trinity and then denies it. If you give me some time I will look up the refernces for you. I asked a man one day to look at these in his book. They were there and I asked him why do they have a problem with it then? He could not answer.

Originally posted by jbgwatney

I think this is interesting because the book of mormon acctually affirms the trinity and then denies it. If you give me some time I will look up the refernces for you. I asked a man one day to look at these in his book. They were there and I asked him why do they have a problem with it then? He could not answer.

And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21)

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
(Mosiah 15:1-5)

Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
...
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be arestored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the bFather, and the Holy Spirit, which is cone Eternal God, to be djudged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11: 38-39, 44)

And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing easeless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7)

And here it is in the D&C

Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20: 28.)

LDS teach and have always taught that God is One. It's even in the D&C. But what does that mean: Jeffery R. Holland summed it up nicely when he said:

Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

Originally posted by Collier

Are you agreeing, then, that the word never refers to a triune being in the NT?



Perhaps you should look at a Hebrew lexicon and find out how the word “elohim” is used. I think Bill, the Cat, has done that.

YHWH is the NAME of the only true God. Paul admits that there are many gods; but then he says, “For us, there is one God, the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:5,6)

For me, too, "there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come, and for whom we exist; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things come and through whom we exist." (Jerusalem Bible, emphasis added)

That sums it up perfectly.

so if we could show that what is attributed to YHWH alone in the OT and is attributed to Jesus in the NT, would that convince you that Jesus is God? That YHWH refers to the triune God and not just the Father?

===

YHWH is Creator

Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Jesus is Creator

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

YHWH is the "First and the Last"

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Jesus is the "First and the Last"

Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

YHWH is "I AM" (ego eimi)

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

See also Deut. 32.39

Jesus is "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek)

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

YHWH is Judge

Joel 3:12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (God is speaking)

Rom. 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

Ezekiel 34:17 "`As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

Jesus is Judge

2 Tim. 4:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."

2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him


YHWH is Savior

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"

Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13: 4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

Jesus is Savior

John 4:42 "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

YHWH is Shepherd

Psalm 23:1 Psalm 23 A psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

Ezekiel 34:11 "`For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus is Shepherd

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25

John 10: 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.