Originally posted by Collier

EXACTLY!! They were the Son’s “fellows” – the judges who did NOT love righteousness nor hate iniquity. So God has ordained his own Son as the Judge (Acts 17:31), and has anointed him with the oil of gladness ABOVE his unrighteous “fellows” (Hebrews 1:9).

God has given all judgment into the hands of his Son – made him the Judge – so that all men would honor the Son just as they honor the Father (John 5:22-23). Anyone who doesn’t honor God’s Son doesn’t honor God, either. So there is no inconsistency in worshipping BOTH the Lamb AND the Lord God Almighty at the same time (Revelation 5:13).

I am not worshipping two Gods. The Lamb is NOT the Lord God Almighty, and never claimed to be. He is the eternal Son OF GOD, "the exact representation of his being"; and therefore he is worthy to be worshipped ALONG WITH God.



There is no inconsistency in believing that Jesus told the truth. He identified the Father as the [u]only/U] true God in John 17:3, and identified himself as being SENT BY the only true God. How can you believe he is the one true God when you don’t even believe what he said?

All I have to think about, Sparko, is the EXPLICIT and CONSISTENT teaching of the New Testament. I have no right to believe a post-biblical doctrine that contradicts that explicit and consistent teaching.

How can he be an exact representation of the Father, have the same NATURE as the Father, be uncreated like the Father, be our creator, and the creator of all things, and hold all things together, and not be Almighty God?

Your idea makes no sense.

Originally posted by Sparko

How can he be an exact representation of the Father, have the same NATURE as the Father, be uncreated like the Father, be our creator, and the creator of all things, and hold all things together, and not be Almighty God?

Because he is the SON of God Almighty, with all the likeness to his Father that anyone would expect of a son, and with all the authority that God Almighty gave to him.

The EXPLICIT and CONSISTENT teaching of the New Testament makes perfect sense – if you read it as it is written, without trying to make it fit the spurious logic that third and fourth century theologians loaded onto it.

no getting around the facts according to bible

fact #1 ... Jesus is a man
fact #2 ... God is not a man

Originally posted by Collier

Because he is the SON of God Almighty, with all the likeness to his Father that anyone would expect of a son, and with all the authority that God Almighty gave to him.

The EXPLICIT and CONSISTENT teaching of the New Testament makes perfect sense – if you read it as it is written, without trying to make it fit the spurious logic that third and fourth century theologians loaded onto it.

If he is the SON of God, and he is divine and a God, and he is not the same God as the Father then you have TWO Gods. You can call one "the true God" but then that just becomes a title and Jesus is a God by nature and being and is as much of a God as the Father but without the title. Doing that just leaves you with polytheism, which contradicts the bible. YHWH says over and over there is no other god but him, that no one helped him create, that there was no god before him nor after him.

Originally posted by barnasha

no getting around the facts according to bible

fact #1 ... Jesus is a man
fact #2 ... God is not a man

Would you care to quote the whole passages of premise #2?

Also do note that the Christian claim is not that God became a man.

Originally posted by Sparko

If he is the SON of God, and he is divine and a God, and he is not the same God as the Father then you have TWO Gods. You can call one "the true God" but then that just becomes a title and Jesus is a God by nature and being and is as much of a God as the Father but without the title. Doing that just leaves you with polytheism, which contradicts the bible. YHWH says over and over there is no other god but him, that no one helped him create, that there was no god before him nor after him.

This is some of the spurious reasoning that sets aside the actual words of the Lord Jesus. Whose words should carry more weight? Yours or his?

I will repeat once more: I believe the EXPLICIT and CONSISTENT teaching of the New Testament. That teaching may not be enough for you, but it is enough for me.

Originally posted by Sparko

looking at your post i see:

Attachment 67292

---Oh. Sorry about that.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Is the Father your Master? (Jude4). Is the Father True Light? (John 1:9-10) . Was Jesus good? (Mark 10:18). Is Jesus the Savior? (Isaiah 43:11). Did Jesus work wonders? (Psalm 72:18). Did Jesus have a hand in creation? (Isaiah 44:24).

In the unique relationship of God (the trinity), Yahweh can make exclusive claims that do not contradict when one person of the Godhead makes them exclusively as well.

Collier,

I'd like your answer on these questions. Thanks!

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Collier,

I'd like your answer on these questions. Thanks!

Bill - they have already been answered. God’s Son is God’s appointed Savior, God’s appointed Judge, God’s appointed King. His authority is all GIVEN to him by HIS GOD.

Nobody is the God of Yahweh. But Yahweh is the God of his Son. He always was (Ps. 40:8), and always will be (1 Corinthians 15:28; Revelation 3:12).

By the way, the Son is also Yahweh's High Priest. Where is such a title ever used of Yahweh? Of whom could Yahweh be the priest?

In other words, your questions are all selected with a view to reject the EXPLICIT and CONSISTENT teaching of the New Testament.

I repeat: there is not one particle of direct evidence that God is tri-une. But the testimony of Jesus, of Paul, of the entire New Testament, is direct evidence that God is the Father.

In the light of all that evidence, I really do not fear the threats of the Athanasian Creed.

Originally posted by Collier

Bill - they have already been answered. God’s Son is God’s appointed Savior, God’s appointed Judge, God’s appointed King. His authority is all GIVEN to him by HIS GOD.

Nobody is the God of Yahweh. But Yahweh is the God of his Son. He always was (Ps. 40:8), and always will be (1 Corinthians 15:28; Revelation 3:12).

By the way, the Son is also Yahweh's High Priest. Where is such a title ever used of Yahweh? Of whom could Yahweh be the priest?

In other words, your questions are all selected with a view to reject the EXPLICIT and CONSISTENT teaching of the New Testament.

I repeat: there is not one particle of direct evidence that God is tri-une. But the testimony of Jesus, of Paul, of the entire New Testament, is direct evidence that God is the Father.

In the light of all that evidence, I really do not fear the threats of the Athanasian Creed.

That doesn't answer any of my questions. Could you be so kind as to answer them?

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

That doesn't answer any of my questions. Could you be so kind as to answer them?

Sorry, Bill. I didn't realize you wanted a separate answer for each question. I thought we agreed that everything the Father is, the Son is. However, here is a separate answer for each question:

Is the Father your Master? (Jude4). Yes. Ultimately, he controls everything and everyone – including his Son, our Lord - whose God he is.

Is the Father True Light? (John 1:9-10). Yes. The Son was the outshining of God’s glory, the exact representation of his being.

Was Jesus good? (Mark 10:18). Yes. So was the faithful servant of Luke 19:17. So was Cornelius. Your point is ...?

Is Jesus the Savior? (Isaiah 43:11). Yes - Acts 5:31.

Did Jesus work wonders? (Psalm 72:18). Yes. “Jesus, a man accredited by God among you by miracles, wonders and signs, which GOD did THROUGH HIM ...” (Acts 2:23)

Did Jesus have a hand in creation? (Isaiah 44:24). Yes. It was BY MEANS OF his Son that God created the worlds (Hebews 1:2).

In every case, the ultimate source of all things is God - Yahweh – the Father.

Now here’s a question for you, which I hope you will be kind enough to answer. Is there anyone whom Yahweh calls, “My God”?

Sorry to butt in. I have been lurking for a while. Collier, I have a question for you:

What does it mean to be the "one true God"?

You also have yet to deal with passages in Psalms and the like that extol the uniqueness of Yahweh (or God the Father as you would say). Psalms 89:9, Isaiah 44:7, Job 41:10. Yahweh defends His holiness agressively and makes it clear that no one is like Him. He issues challenges and asks on more than one occasion "Who is like me?" If Jesus is NOT a part of Yahweh, then Jesus is exactly like God the Father and the claims to uniqueness on the part of God (you would say God the Father) are lies. Who is like God the Father? The Son, in whom the fullness of deity dwells. This is a problem if you maintain that they are not the same essence and being.

So, either the Father is a liar, or Jesus is God and God is triune (which really would make God completely unique and more than validate His claims of such). The Scriptures don't give you another option.

Originally posted by Collier

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Is the Father your Master?

(Jude4). Yes. Ultimately, he controls everything and everyone – including his Son, our Lord - whose God he is.

But that denies the clear words of Jude 4 that says “our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ”
How can Jesus be “our only Master” and the Father be our master as well?

Originally posted by Collier

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Is the Father True Light?

(John 1:9-10). Yes. The Son was the outshining of God’s glory, the exact representation of his being.

But that denies the clear words of John 1:9 that says Jesus is the true light. The Bible never explicitly says that the Father IS Light.

Originally posted by Collier

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Was Jesus good? (Mark 10:18).

Yes. So was the faithful servant of Luke 19:17. So was Cornelius.Your point is ...?

The point is that Jesus himself said that none are good except the Father. And the servant in Luke 19 and Cornelius were not good by nature, but good in deed. Is Jesus good by nature or just according to His deeds?

Originally posted by Collier

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Is Jesus the Savior?

(Isaiah 43:11). Yes - Acts 5:31.

Again, that denies the clear teaching of scripture where Yahweh says “I, even I, am the LORD, and there is no savior besides Me”, meaning there is no savior except Yahweh – including Jesus (if He were not Yahweh).

Originally posted by Collier

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Did Jesus work wonders?

(Psalm 72:18). Yes. “Jesus, a man accredited by God among you by miracles, wonders and signs, which GOD did THROUGH HIM ...” (Acts 2:23)

Then your answer should have been no, since Jesus didn’t do them – the Father did them THROUGH Jesus.

Originally posted by Collier

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Did Jesus have a hand in creation? (Isaiah 44:24). Yes

. It was BY MEANS OF his Son that God created the worlds (Hebews 1:2).

Then this denies the clear teaching of scripture where Yahweh says “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself and spreading out the earth all alone,”. Yahweh stretched out the heavens by Himself and spread out the earth alone. If Jesus were not Yahweh, then He did not have a hand in creation because the Father created – according to His OWN WORDS – “by myself” and “alone”

So from the responses offered, you are stuck with your foot halfway into the Trinity and halfway into adoptionism from where I sit. I may be off base on that summation, but the answers you provided – with the supporting scriptures you provided – show that you do know how to go beyond a single proof text. Scripture is clear that there is only one God (‘o theos) and that Greek term is used to describe the Father, Son, and Spirit in the passages I already cited.

In every case, the ultimate source of all things is God - Yahweh – the Father.

Yahweh exists in 3 self-aware persons. None of the single persons are exclusively Yahweh. Saying the Father is Yahweh is accurate, but saying that Yahweh is the Father is incorrect. It’s a bit tough to get your head around, as we lack the eternal and infinite mind to comprehend it completely. However, it meets all of the passages in the Bible that describe God and who shares in that nature and under what functional level in the hierarchy.

Now here’s a question for you, which I hope you will be kind enough to answer. Is there anyone whom Yahweh calls, “My God”?

No, as that would make no sense. There is only one God (Yahweh), so Yahweh would call no one else My God. But, does the Father call anyone “The God” is a better question, and under what circumstances?

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

How can Jesus be “our only Master” and the Father be our master as well?

"Our only Master" represents the supreme Master, who is God. See John 13:20. The representative is identified with the one who is being represented.

But that denies the clear words of John 1:9 that says Jesus is the true light. The Bible never explicitly says that the Father IS Light.

Try 1 John 1:5-7.

The point is that Jesus himself said that none are good except the Father. And the servant in Luke 19 and Cornelius were not good by nature, but good in deed. Is Jesus good by nature or just according to His deeds?

Both. His nature is God’s nature. It is FROM God and OF God. (I don’t know why Jesus worded it this way to the rich young man, and to no one else, but it’s worth studying.)

Again, that denies the clear teaching of scripture where Yahweh says “I, even I, am the LORD, and there is no savior besides Me”, meaning there is no savior except Yahweh – including Jesus (if He were not Yahweh).

Are you suggesting that the saviors Yahweh sent (2 Kings 13:5; Nehemiah 9:27) were ALSO Yahweh?

Once again, the representative is identified with the one being represented. Remember that “The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14).

Then your answer should have been no, since Jesus didn’t do them – the Father did them THROUGH Jesus.

Have you forgotten Peter? The apostles (especially Peter) “performed many miraculous signs and wonders” (Acts 5:12-15). But just as truly, God was doing those works THROUGH Peter.

Notice: Peter did wonders; but Peter was not Yahweh.

There is no contradiction. You are not paying attention to the IDENTIFICATION of the sender with the sent one that Jesus explained in John 13:20.

I’m going to stop now for awhile. Craig sent a private message recommending that I read his posts in The Basketball Court, which I have been doing. That will take some time.

Frankly, I welcome an uninterrupted discussion with a single individual. I am not ignoring your other comments, Sparko, but they will have to wait awhile.

Originally posted by Collier

"Our only Master" represents the supreme Master, who is God. See John 13:20. The representative is identified with the one who is being represented.



Try 1 John 1:5-7.



Both. His nature is God’s nature. It is FROM God and OF God. (I don’t know why Jesus worded it this way to the rich young man, and to no one else, but it’s worth studying.)



Are you suggesting that the saviors Yahweh sent (2 Kings 13:5; Nehemiah 9:27) were ALSO Yahweh?

Once again, the representative is identified with the one being represented. Remember that “The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14).



Have you forgotten Peter? The apostles (especially Peter) “performed many miraculous signs and wonders” (Acts 5:12-15). But just as truly, God was doing those works THROUGH Peter.

Notice: Peter did wonders; but Peter was not Yahweh.

There is no contradiction. You are not paying attention to the IDENTIFICATION of the sender with the sent one that Jesus explained in John 13:20.

I’m going to stop now for awhile. Craig sent a private message recommending that I read his posts in The Basketball Court, which I have been doing. That will take some time.

Frankly, I welcome an uninterrupted discussion with a single individual. I am not ignoring your other comments, Sparko, but they will have to wait awhile.

Good, you do not simply hone in on one verse and make a doctrine in these instances. Now, use the same tactics on Jesus' Godhood and eternal nature, and you get the Trinity. Anything else violates monotheism.

I’ve been away from this thread for awhile, so I’ve been rereading previous posts to refresh my memory. There are a couple of points that have not been addressed, I think.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

So from the responses offered, you are stuck with your foot halfway into the Trinity and halfway into adoptionism from where I sit. I may be off base on that summation, but the answers you provided – with the supporting scriptures you provided – show that you do know how to go beyond a single proof text. Scripture is clear that there is only one God (‘o theos) and that Greek term is used to describe the Father, Son, and Spirit in the passages I already cited.

So: "Scripture is clear that there is only one God (‘o theos) and that Greek term is used to describe the Father, Son, and Spirit in the passages I already cited."

Add Satan to that list. He is called “the god (‘o theos) of this world” (2 Co. 4:4).

Do you believe that title makes Satan the “one God”?

I don’t. I believe, with Paul, that the one God is the Father (1 Co. 8:6).

I also believe that the testimony of Jesus is both accurate and complete. He is the “faithful and true witness”.

He tells me that the only true God is the Father. I believe him.