Man at God's Right Hand (split from Miracles Administered) - Page 3 - TheologyWeb Campus
TheologyWeb Campus TheologyWeb Campus


Hello and welcome to TheologyWeb – theology debate with a serious dose of fun! It has been our goal to create one of the best and most innovative discussion sites on the Net. Please visit our forums where we debate and discuss everything from religion, politics, lifestyle, pop culture, to who is the coolest member of the moderating team. Register now and join in the fun, its free, easy, and makes Dee Dee Warren happy.




*This site is best viewed in Mozilla Firefox with a minimum display resolution of 1024x768.

Reply

Man at God's Right Hand (split from Miracles Administered)
View First Unread
Obsidian is online now
Obsidian tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,950
Join Date: February 28th, 2009
Spam: 3 | Anti-Spam: 338
Pearls: 188
 
Old
  July 13th 2009 , 11:48 PM
 
 
 
 
I think he's pretty much right about Southern Baptists being cessationists, although most of the churches don't adopt an official position. It's not denigrating to say it, either.

 
    tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 13th 2009 , 11:49 PM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
That is an interesting list. I would suggest though, that the exorcisms probably shouldn't count as "miracles," even though they involve the power of God. Regardless of what you call them, most Christian denominations recognize (at least theoretically) the possibility of exorcisms by Christians in today's world -- although some of the more skeptical Christians might claim that demons are less prevalent now on earth or perhaps non-existent.

Most of the rest of the miracles would seem to be responses to prayer. As with the exorcisms, Christians typically acknowledge that God may intervene in the material world as a response to prayer (or in some cases, may have used Middle Knowledge to set up the right chain of material events in advance). I don't think answered prayer disproves cessationism.

I wouldn't necessarilly call a Bible verse springing to mind a "word of wisdom," although it's possible. What exactly a word of wisdom means in the Bible is completely ambiguous, as we don't seem to have any examples except maybe Solomon.

The most impressive one that would come closest to disproving cessationism was stopping the tornado. As you described it, that one didn't even involve prayer. Of course, it could also be a coincidence. Overall, tornados aren't that deadly, and they're pretty unpredictable.
I wish I had said that!

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 13th 2009 , 11:53 PM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
I think he's pretty much right about Southern Baptists being cessationists, although most of the churches don't adopt an official position. It's not denigrating to say it, either.
Well, if that's true, I guess I fellowship with an odd lot! I think, following the 60's with the glossolalia phenomenon, a lot of SBC churches threw the Holy Spirit out with the tongues movement. An obvious overreaction. Since then, more and more SBC Churches have realized the power and necessity of the Holy Spirit. I can only speak from personal experience, but I am usually part of a fellowship of SBC pastors (currently, Southern Baptists of Texas, and South Texas Baptist Association) and many of us believe in miracles.

What can I say?

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Obsidian is online now
Obsidian tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,950
Join Date: February 28th, 2009
Spam: 3 | Anti-Spam: 338
Pearls: 188
 
Old
  July 13th 2009 , 11:57 PM
 
 
 
 
I'm not sure how you're defining cessationist, but this is how I mean it:

Originally posted by "Cessationism," Wikipedia
In Christian theology, cessationism is the view that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing, ceased being practiced early on in Church history.
Cessationists generally believe that direct prophecy is gone, that tongues (as in languages) are gone, and that individuals do not have the power to heal directly the same way Peter healed the beggar. It doesn't mean there are no miracles. It does imply, however, that miracles are a perrogative of God, and not something we can just call up the way the guys on tv do.

 
    tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
eudyptes is offline
eudyptes gooood morning.....
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 5,595
Join Date: March 10th, 2005
Spam: 12546 | Anti-Spam: 106
Pearls: 745
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:03 AM
 
 
 
 
...I grew up in SBC churches....and a military brat so moved around a bit.....
anointing with oil and having the elders pray over you was done in every church we belonged too...
...heard several sermons on tongues being possible....as long as done biblically....
....couple of pastors even taught that they could see a case for prayer language...private to the individual...in the Bible

...prophecy wasn't really ever talked about....either direction...

....miracles were believed in heavily...and reported as they happened....

....trying to remember.....but I believe that would cover about 8-10 different SBC churches....not a wide sampling....but enough that coupled with CP's statements....can't really paint with the denomination with the broad brush of cessastionism

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. - William G. McAdoo

Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane. - Philip K. Dick
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:06 AM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
I'm not sure how you're defining cessationist, but this is how I mean it:



Cessationists generally believe that direct prophecy is gone, that tongues (as in languages) are gone, and that individuals do not have the power to heal directly the same way Peter healed the beggar. It doesn't mean there are no miracles. It does imply, however, that miracles are a perrogative of God, and not something we can just call up the way the guys on tv do.
I appreciate the clarification... so I guess you could call me and the folks with whom I associate PARTIAL cessationists!

The power to heal... I guess that could get into - I have seen prayer result directly in the healing of individuals where we fully expected God to work... a lady in the hospital who lost total ability to speak because of a bad car wreck - we prayed for her, laying hands on her, and she spoke immediately... so... I'm listening... cessationist?

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
TyRockwell is offline
TyRockwell Jesus is alive and Lord
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 3,692
Join Date: September 22nd, 2007
Spam: 101 | Anti-Spam: 2462
Pearls: 255
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:07 AM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
That is an interesting list. I would suggest though, that the exorcisms probably shouldn't count as "miracles," even though they involve the power of God.
The people who were set free, and those that saw it definitely believe it was miraculous. The intervention of God's power is supernatural in itself.

Regardless of what you call them, most Christian denominations recognize (at least theoretically) the possibility of exorcisms by Christians in today's world -- although some of the more skeptical Christians might claim that demons are less prevalent now on earth or perhaps non-existent.
We've been casting them into the Abyss since the time came after Jesus' ascension.

Most of the rest of the miracles would seem to be responses to prayer. As with the exorcisms, Christians typically acknowledge that God may intervene in the material world as a response to prayer (or in some cases, may have used Middle Knowledge to set up the right chain of material events in advance). I don't think answered prayer disproves cessationism.
A great many things disprove cessationism, just not where you fellowship.

I wouldn't necessarilly call a Bible verse springing to mind a "word of wisdom," although it's possible. What exactly a word of wisdom means in the Bible is completely ambiguous, as we don't seem to have any examples except maybe Solomon.
That would be, YOU don't have any examples.

The most impressive one that would come closest to disproving cessationism was stopping the tornado. As you described it, that one didn't even involve prayer. Of course, it could also be a coincidence. Overall, tornados aren't that deadly, and they're pretty unpredictable.
Many people with dead relatives and friends will dispute you on that 'not that deadly' statement. They will also tell you they are more destructive than hurricanes, but cover a smaller area. Just watch the Weather Channel.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
The End From The Beginning by Ty Aldrich is a revealing of what is behind today's headlines and world events from the Bible's prophecies. The religion of Babylon is Islam. Their military is funded and provisioned by Persia, which is Iran. The "Last Remaining Superpower" is fashioned after the democracy invented by Greece. How can this scenario not come to blows of eschatological importance, in this time of the end of this age? There can be only One outcome.
Learn what to do. The End From The Beginning is available at www.lulu.com/content/2614100
Listen to free 24 hour prophetic worship at Elijahstreams.com .............................The Cross The Arthur Blessit Story now available on DVD.
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:09 AM
 
In reply to this post by eudyptes
 
 
 
...I grew up in SBC churches....and a military brat so moved around a bit......miracles were believed in heavily...and reported as they happened....

....trying to remember.....but I believe that would cover about 8-10 different SBC churches....not a wide sampling....but enough that coupled with CP's statements....can't really paint with the denomination with the broad brush of cessastionism
Thanks, Eudy.... same experience! Maybe it's the "big" SBC Churches that cessated?

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Obsidian is online now
Obsidian tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,950
Join Date: February 28th, 2009
Spam: 3 | Anti-Spam: 338
Pearls: 188
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:13 AM
 
 
 
 
I acknowledge that tornados are destructive, but it's only over a concentrated area. Not many people usually die from them. And all you have to do is watch Twister to know they can appear and disappear out of no where.

Originally posted by Ty
That would be, YOU don't have any examples [of words of wisdom].
You've taken a phrase out of the NT which, I believe, only occurs in one location and without any explanation. And then you're applying it to yourself as if you know for sure what it is. That's even worse than calling the glossolalia stuff "tongues." It's just plain foolish. I suspect the "word of wisdom" might simply mean "wisdom," which Solomon definitely seemed to obtain through the Spirit. But the Bible isn't particularly clear about what it is.

And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.

 
    tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:16 AM
 
 
 
 
Many people with dead relatives and friends will dispute you on that 'not that deadly' statement. They will also tell you they are more destructive than hurricanes, but cover a smaller area. Just watch the Weather Channel.
I guess, Obsidian, this is why I get frustrated with Ty. YOU engaged in what I thought was honest dialogue, and this is the kind of answer you get.

My first (cursory) search of "Tornadoes vs Hurricanes" for deadliness... Hurricanes "win" by a slight margin.

http://www.helium.com/debates/95572-...s-or-tornadoes

also...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_de...r_a_F5_tornado

Hurricanes "win" again

CP in Hurricane Alley

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
TyRockwell is offline
TyRockwell Jesus is alive and Lord
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 3,692
Join Date: September 22nd, 2007
Spam: 101 | Anti-Spam: 2462
Pearls: 255
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:19 AM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
I'm not sure how you're defining cessationist, but this is how I mean it:

Cessationists generally believe that direct prophecy is gone, that tongues (as in languages) are gone, and that individuals do not have the power to heal directly the same way Peter healed the beggar. It doesn't mean there are no miracles. It does imply, however, that miracles are a perrogative of God, and not something we can just call up the way the guys on tv do.
In the cessationist church I was reared in, they backed up their belief with a totally screwed up interpretation of 1st Cor. 13, claiming "when that which is perfect has come" referred to the Bible. The truth is, it refers to love.

Without perfect love, the gifts of the Spirit are "in part" and likely to cease. But perfect love casts out all fear, and "in part" gifts of the Spirit become fully manifesting gifts.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
The End From The Beginning by Ty Aldrich is a revealing of what is behind today's headlines and world events from the Bible's prophecies. The religion of Babylon is Islam. Their military is funded and provisioned by Persia, which is Iran. The "Last Remaining Superpower" is fashioned after the democracy invented by Greece. How can this scenario not come to blows of eschatological importance, in this time of the end of this age? There can be only One outcome.
Learn what to do. The End From The Beginning is available at www.lulu.com/content/2614100
Listen to free 24 hour prophetic worship at Elijahstreams.com .............................The Cross The Arthur Blessit Story now available on DVD.
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:20 AM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.
GEE, you're difficult. She called for the elders of the Church, as per God's Word, (James 5:14) we arrived and prayed for her. She was healed instantly. What can I say?

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
TyRockwell is offline
TyRockwell Jesus is alive and Lord
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 3,692
Join Date: September 22nd, 2007
Spam: 101 | Anti-Spam: 2462
Pearls: 255
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:43 AM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
I acknowledge that tornados are destructive, but it's only over a concentrated area. Not many people usually die from them. And all you have to do is watch Twister to know they can appear and disappear out of no where.
Duh, when they appear, they are deadly, and their wind speeds usually are higher than most hurricanes. It isn't wise to let movies influence your theology.

You've taken a phrase out of the NT which, I believe, only occurs in one location and without any explanation. And then you're applying it to yourself as if you know for sure what it is.
I DO know what it is.
Many people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit know first-hand what a "word of knowledge" and a "word of wisdom" is without a doubt. I've seen it and been involved in it.

As to my case with the cessationist with prostate cancer, I did not come up with that from my own mind. I knew James 5, but I had no expectation that that church would do it, or that the old deacon would even ask the elders to do it. He couldn't remember that ever being done before in that church.

That's even worse than calling the glossolalia stuff "tongues." It's just plain foolish.
God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge." What you call 'foolish' is only foolish to them that are perishing, even God's people.

I suspect the "word of wisdom" might simply mean "wisdom," which Solomon definitely seemed to obtain through the Spirit. But the Bible isn't particularly clear about what it is.
But the Holy Spirit teaches what it is. You SUSPECT incorrectly.

And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.
The Bible says, DO IT!

Obeying the Bible is not dangerous. The opposite is dangerous.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
The End From The Beginning by Ty Aldrich is a revealing of what is behind today's headlines and world events from the Bible's prophecies. The religion of Babylon is Islam. Their military is funded and provisioned by Persia, which is Iran. The "Last Remaining Superpower" is fashioned after the democracy invented by Greece. How can this scenario not come to blows of eschatological importance, in this time of the end of this age? There can be only One outcome.
Learn what to do. The End From The Beginning is available at www.lulu.com/content/2614100
Listen to free 24 hour prophetic worship at Elijahstreams.com .............................The Cross The Arthur Blessit Story now available on DVD.
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:46 AM
 
 
 
 
Obeying the Bible is not dangerous. The opposite is dangerous.
Wow.. have I entered the Twilight Zone?
Ty is defending ME??!?!?!

This is too creepy.

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
TyRockwell is offline
TyRockwell Jesus is alive and Lord
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 3,692
Join Date: September 22nd, 2007
Spam: 101 | Anti-Spam: 2462
Pearls: 255
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 12:48 AM
 
 
 
 
Wow.. have I entered the Twilight Zone?
Ty is defending ME??!?!?!

This is too creepy.
Miracles happen!

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
The End From The Beginning by Ty Aldrich is a revealing of what is behind today's headlines and world events from the Bible's prophecies. The religion of Babylon is Islam. Their military is funded and provisioned by Persia, which is Iran. The "Last Remaining Superpower" is fashioned after the democracy invented by Greece. How can this scenario not come to blows of eschatological importance, in this time of the end of this age? There can be only One outcome.
Learn what to do. The End From The Beginning is available at www.lulu.com/content/2614100
Listen to free 24 hour prophetic worship at Elijahstreams.com .............................The Cross The Arthur Blessit Story now available on DVD.
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Country Preacher is offline
Country Preacher tired of theolectualism
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Bacon/Coffeeist  
Posts: 4,629
Join Date: March 30th, 2009
Spam: 2625 | Anti-Spam: 766
Pearls: 744
 
Old
  July 14th 2009 , 01:02 AM
 
In reply to this post by Obsidian
 
 
 
And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.
Seriously, Obsidian... why would you say that? She was aware of the James 5:14 principle, and took it to heart. So did we. There was nothing "charismatic" (in the popular sense) about it... just 5 guys praying for healing, and God granted it.

Not being argumentative at all, just asking for your rationale on saying this was "not very wise".

I think the last half of your paragraph above is a little presumptive. Nobody promised anything but to pray. In my heart of hearts, I "knew" she was going to be healed, but didn't "advertise" that, or promise anything. God's direct representative? I don't think so. Obedient to the Scripture? That's all I was shooting for. And God blessed.

 
  Professor: not very mighty! - Issue reason: wannabe Mustang pilot Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: June 2009 Alumnus    tWebber  
     

I don't want something complicated baby - I just want something simple like the truth.


www.Theolectual.com Theolectual Theolectualism



 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

The following tWebber says Amen to Country Preacher for this useful Post:

« Previous Thread   |   Post New Thread   |   Next Thread »


 
Forum Jump  

Page generated in 0.68589 seconds with 15 queries