I think he's pretty much right about Southern Baptists being cessationists, although most of the churches don't adopt an official position. It's not denigrating to say it, either.

Originally posted by Obsidian

That is an interesting list. I would suggest though, that the exorcisms probably shouldn't count as "miracles," even though they involve the power of God. Regardless of what you call them, most Christian denominations recognize (at least theoretically) the possibility of exorcisms by Christians in today's world -- although some of the more skeptical Christians might claim that demons are less prevalent now on earth or perhaps non-existent.

Most of the rest of the miracles would seem to be responses to prayer. As with the exorcisms, Christians typically acknowledge that God may intervene in the material world as a response to prayer (or in some cases, may have used Middle Knowledge to set up the right chain of material events in advance). I don't think answered prayer disproves cessationism.

I wouldn't necessarilly call a Bible verse springing to mind a "word of wisdom," although it's possible. What exactly a word of wisdom means in the Bible is completely ambiguous, as we don't seem to have any examples except maybe Solomon.

The most impressive one that would come closest to disproving cessationism was stopping the tornado. As you described it, that one didn't even involve prayer. Of course, it could also be a coincidence. Overall, tornados aren't that deadly, and they're pretty unpredictable.

I wish I had said that!

Originally posted by Obsidian

I think he's pretty much right about Southern Baptists being cessationists, although most of the churches don't adopt an official position. It's not denigrating to say it, either.

Well, if that's true, I guess I fellowship with an odd lot! I think, following the 60's with the glossolalia phenomenon, a lot of SBC churches threw the Holy Spirit out with the tongues movement. An obvious overreaction. Since then, more and more SBC Churches have realized the power and necessity of the Holy Spirit. I can only speak from personal experience, but I am usually part of a fellowship of SBC pastors (currently, Southern Baptists of Texas, and South Texas Baptist Association) and many of us believe in miracles.

What can I say?

I'm not sure how you're defining cessationist, but this is how I mean it:

Originally posted by "Cessationism," Wikipedia

In Christian theology, cessationism is the view that the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues, prophecy and healing, ceased being practiced early on in Church history.

Cessationists generally believe that direct prophecy is gone, that tongues (as in languages) are gone, and that individuals do not have the power to heal directly the same way Peter healed the beggar. It doesn't mean there are no miracles. It does imply, however, that miracles are a perrogative of God, and not something we can just call up the way the guys on tv do.

...I grew up in SBC churches....and a military brat so moved around a bit.....
anointing with oil and having the elders pray over you was done in every church we belonged too...
...heard several sermons on tongues being possible....as long as done biblically....
....couple of pastors even taught that they could see a case for prayer language...private to the individual...in the Bible

...prophecy wasn't really ever talked about....either direction...

....miracles were believed in heavily...and reported as they happened....

....trying to remember.....but I believe that would cover about 8-10 different SBC churches....not a wide sampling....but enough that coupled with CP's statements....can't really paint with the denomination with the broad brush of cessastionism

Originally posted by Obsidian

I'm not sure how you're defining cessationist, but this is how I mean it:



Cessationists generally believe that direct prophecy is gone, that tongues (as in languages) are gone, and that individuals do not have the power to heal directly the same way Peter healed the beggar. It doesn't mean there are no miracles. It does imply, however, that miracles are a perrogative of God, and not something we can just call up the way the guys on tv do.

I appreciate the clarification... so I guess you could call me and the folks with whom I associate PARTIAL cessationists!

The power to heal... I guess that could get into - I have seen prayer result directly in the healing of individuals where we fully expected God to work... a lady in the hospital who lost total ability to speak because of a bad car wreck - we prayed for her, laying hands on her, and she spoke immediately... so... I'm listening... cessationist?

Originally posted by Obsidian

That is an interesting list. I would suggest though, that the exorcisms probably shouldn't count as "miracles," even though they involve the power of God.

The people who were set free, and those that saw it definitely believe it was miraculous. The intervention of God's power is supernatural in itself.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Regardless of what you call them, most Christian denominations recognize (at least theoretically) the possibility of exorcisms by Christians in today's world -- although some of the more skeptical Christians might claim that demons are less prevalent now on earth or perhaps non-existent.

We've been casting them into the Abyss since the time came after Jesus' ascension.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Most of the rest of the miracles would seem to be responses to prayer. As with the exorcisms, Christians typically acknowledge that God may intervene in the material world as a response to prayer (or in some cases, may have used Middle Knowledge to set up the right chain of material events in advance). I don't think answered prayer disproves cessationism.

A great many things disprove cessationism, just not where you fellowship.

Originally posted by Obsidian

I wouldn't necessarilly call a Bible verse springing to mind a "word of wisdom," although it's possible. What exactly a word of wisdom means in the Bible is completely ambiguous, as we don't seem to have any examples except maybe Solomon.

That would be, YOU don't have any examples.

Originally posted by Obsidian

The most impressive one that would come closest to disproving cessationism was stopping the tornado. As you described it, that one didn't even involve prayer. Of course, it could also be a coincidence. Overall, tornados aren't that deadly, and they're pretty unpredictable.

Many people with dead relatives and friends will dispute you on that 'not that deadly' statement. They will also tell you they are more destructive than hurricanes, but cover a smaller area. Just watch the Weather Channel.

Originally posted by eudyptes

...I grew up in SBC churches....and a military brat so moved around a bit......miracles were believed in heavily...and reported as they happened....

....trying to remember.....but I believe that would cover about 8-10 different SBC churches....not a wide sampling....but enough that coupled with CP's statements....can't really paint with the denomination with the broad brush of cessastionism

Thanks, Eudy.... same experience! Maybe it's the "big" SBC Churches that cessated?

I acknowledge that tornados are destructive, but it's only over a concentrated area. Not many people usually die from them. And all you have to do is watch Twister to know they can appear and disappear out of no where.

Originally posted by Ty

That would be, YOU don't have any examples [of words of wisdom].

You've taken a phrase out of the NT which, I believe, only occurs in one location and without any explanation. And then you're applying it to yourself as if you know for sure what it is. That's even worse than calling the glossolalia stuff "tongues." It's just plain foolish. I suspect the "word of wisdom" might simply mean "wisdom," which Solomon definitely seemed to obtain through the Spirit. But the Bible isn't particularly clear about what it is.

And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.

Originally posted by TyRockwell

Many people with dead relatives and friends will dispute you on that 'not that deadly' statement. They will also tell you they are more destructive than hurricanes, but cover a smaller area. Just watch the Weather Channel.

I guess, Obsidian, this is why I get frustrated with Ty. YOU engaged in what I thought was honest dialogue, and this is the kind of answer you get.

My first (cursory) search of "Tornadoes vs Hurricanes" for deadliness... Hurricanes "win" by a slight margin.

http://www.helium.com/debates/95572-...s-or-tornadoes

also...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_de...r_a_F5_tornado

Hurricanes "win" again

CP in Hurricane Alley

Originally posted by Obsidian

I'm not sure how you're defining cessationist, but this is how I mean it:

Cessationists generally believe that direct prophecy is gone, that tongues (as in languages) are gone, and that individuals do not have the power to heal directly the same way Peter healed the beggar. It doesn't mean there are no miracles. It does imply, however, that miracles are a perrogative of God, and not something we can just call up the way the guys on tv do.

In the cessationist church I was reared in, they backed up their belief with a totally screwed up interpretation of 1st Cor. 13, claiming "when that which is perfect has come" referred to the Bible. The truth is, it refers to love.

Without perfect love, the gifts of the Spirit are "in part" and likely to cease. But perfect love casts out all fear, and "in part" gifts of the Spirit become fully manifesting gifts.

Originally posted by Obsidian

And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.

GEE, you're difficult. She called for the elders of the Church, as per God's Word, (James 5:14) we arrived and prayed for her. She was healed instantly. What can I say?

Originally posted by Obsidian

I acknowledge that tornados are destructive, but it's only over a concentrated area. Not many people usually die from them. And all you have to do is watch Twister to know they can appear and disappear out of no where.

Duh, when they appear, they are deadly, and their wind speeds usually are higher than most hurricanes. It isn't wise to let movies influence your theology.

Originally posted by Obsidian

You've taken a phrase out of the NT which, I believe, only occurs in one location and without any explanation. And then you're applying it to yourself as if you know for sure what it is.

I DO know what it is.
Many people who are baptized in the Holy Spirit know first-hand what a "word of knowledge" and a "word of wisdom" is without a doubt. I've seen it and been involved in it.

As to my case with the cessationist with prostate cancer, I did not come up with that from my own mind. I knew James 5, but I had no expectation that that church would do it, or that the old deacon would even ask the elders to do it. He couldn't remember that ever being done before in that church.

Originally posted by Obsidian

That's even worse than calling the glossolalia stuff "tongues." It's just plain foolish.

God said, "My people perish for lack of knowledge." What you call 'foolish' is only foolish to them that are perishing, even God's people.

Originally posted by Obsidian

I suspect the "word of wisdom" might simply mean "wisdom," which Solomon definitely seemed to obtain through the Spirit. But the Bible isn't particularly clear about what it is.

But the Holy Spirit teaches what it is. You SUSPECT incorrectly.

Originally posted by Obsidian

And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.

The Bible says, DO IT!

Obeying the Bible is not dangerous. The opposite is dangerous.

Originally posted by TyRockwell

Obeying the Bible is not dangerous. The opposite is dangerous.

Wow.. have I entered the Twilight Zone?
Ty is defending ME??!?!?!

This is too creepy.

Originally posted by Country Preacher

Wow.. have I entered the Twilight Zone?
Ty is defending ME??!?!?!

This is too creepy.

Miracles happen!

Originally posted by Obsidian

And Country Preacher, what you described with the laying hands sounds borderline Charismatic, and also not very wise. I don't believe the Bible promises us that God will heal people that we lay hands on. If you start setting yourself up as God's direct representative, pretty soon people start to get upset when someone who you lay hands on doesn't get healed as promised.

Seriously, Obsidian... why would you say that? She was aware of the James 5:14 principle, and took it to heart. So did we. There was nothing "charismatic" (in the popular sense) about it... just 5 guys praying for healing, and God granted it.

Not being argumentative at all, just asking for your rationale on saying this was "not very wise".

I think the last half of your paragraph above is a little presumptive. Nobody promised anything but to pray. In my heart of hearts, I "knew" she was going to be healed, but didn't "advertise" that, or promise anything. God's direct representative? I don't think so. Obedient to the Scripture? That's all I was shooting for. And God blessed.