Well maybe I misunderstood your initial description, Preacher. If you're just praying for someone, I can't argue against that. The laying on of hands deal, though, suggested to me that you were involved in some sort of miracle ministry whereby the pastor(s) attracted people by promising (implicitly or explicitly) to land hands on them and heal them.

Originally posted by Ty

The Bible says, DO IT

Contrary to what Ty has just argued, the Bible does not say to lay hands on anyone for healing, not even in James. It says that if you are a righteous man -- as Elijah was and presumably the church elders are -- God is likely to answer your prayers.

Cessationism does not mean that God will not work miracles. It means that certain spectacular spiritual gifts have ceased or at the very least altered their form of operation since the end of the apostolic period. Originally, a common spiritual gift a believer might receive was prophecy. Another was the ability to speak foreign languages. Another was to interpret these languages. Another was to provide miraculous healing. Cessationism means that miracles will probably be diminished in frequency compared to the apostolic period, because we don't have spiritually-ordained miracle-workers running around anymore. Miracles only occur when God/Jesus himself directs them.

Originally posted by Ty

In the cessationist church I was reared in, they backed up their belief with a totally screwed up interpretation of 1st Cor. 13, claiming "when that which is perfect has come" referred to the Bible. The truth is, it refers to love. Without perfect love, the gifts of the Spirit are "in part" and likely to cease. But perfect love casts out all fear, and "in part" gifts of the Spirit become fully manifesting gifts.

Actually, the Bible fits the context better than love does. The passage explicitly states that tongues and prophecy will "cease" and "pass away" at some point. The point at which they pass away is when the perfect arrives. If the perfect is love, then that means that we will stop prophecying when we have perfect love.

And I don't really understand how you're distinguishing "word of knowledge" from "prophecy."

Originally posted by TyRockwell

I starteded the other thread to talk about how God is using His sons and daughters in these last days to act in the anointed power of the Holy Spirit. That thread was taken way off track. I want this thread to stay on topic.

The issue going forward will be understanding our place in Christ, seated with him at God's right hand.

God put an end to the Old Covenant religious system by which religious leaders held the people under their control.

Yes, now apparently he's put Ty in charge. No seriously, God confirmed it to him.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Well maybe I misunderstood your initial description, Preacher. If you're just praying for someone, I can't argue against that. The laying on of hands deal, though, suggested to me that you were involved in some sort of miracle ministry whereby the pastor(s) attracted people by promising (implicitly or explicitly) to land hands on them and heal them.

Interesting comments, Obsidian. And I welcome anything that makes me think. I can see why you would suspect some kind of dramatic "laying on of hands" hyperspiritual thing... and to be honest, I hadn't thought about it that way.

Quite honestly, I started the "hands on" thing more out of a show of compassion. My very first "subject" was a lady who had cancer. My oldest brother had just died of cancer, and this woman, because she had lost her hair and was pretty emaciated, almost skeletal, looked quite eerily like my brother when HE was in a hospital bed. It was a REALLY hard visit for me to make.

When I was ready to pray for her, something inside me said "put your hand on her". Again, quite honestly, I did NOT expect her to be healed - nothing inside me indicated that - but I put my hand on her shoulder and prayed for her. After I was done praying, she looked up at me through tears and said "you are the first person, besides hospital staff, who has touched me in nearly a year." I was obviously surprised, and she continued "I think everybody is afraid they'll catch cancer from me." WOW... so I hugged her! Not a usual thing I do, but it was part of my "school of hard knocks" and "lessons learned".

Again, you're making me think... It's not so much that I "pray for them expecting them to be healed" as it is that I seem to get a sense inside that "this one is going to be healed"... An old rancher friend of mine in my congregation was involved in a head-on collision and was very badly injured. Doctors said he would never walk, and chances of survival were pretty slim. When I saw him in the hospital, he looked BAD, but something in his eye as I talked to him, and something inside me ... I just knew he was going to make it. So I prayed for him, and as God is my witness, within 6 months he WALKED up the isle of my church (haltingly and with the aid of a walker) to thank the Church for prayers.

I never really think about "why", i just seem to "do". But it's good to think, too.

Originally posted by Pilgrim

Yes, now apparently he's put Ty in charge. No seriously, God confirmed it to him.

Well, to be fair... I think FredFlanders is in charge, and Ty is his helper. I'm just sayin

Sort of like the Emperor and Darth Vader then?

Originally posted by Pilgrim

Sort of like the Emperor and Darth Vader then?

Well, gee.. hadn't thought about it like that... But ACTUALLY, Fred makes Ty look downright reasonable! Fred thinks I'm the antichrist because I tend to equate Benny Hinn with "big time wrestling". (that last part is slightly exaggerated)

Originally posted by Country Preacher

Interesting comments, Obsidian. And I welcome anything that makes me think. I can see why you would suspect some kind of dramatic "laying on of hands" hyperspiritual thing... and to be honest, I hadn't thought about it that way.

Quite honestly, I started the "hands on" thing more out of a show of compassion. My very first "subject" was a lady who had cancer. My oldest brother had just died of cancer, and this woman, because she had lost her hair and was pretty emaciated, almost skeletal, looked quite eerily like my brother when HE was in a hospital bed. It was a REALLY hard visit for me to make.

When I was ready to pray for her, something inside me said "put your hand on her". Again, quite honestly, I did NOT expect her to be healed - nothing inside me indicated that - but I put my hand on her shoulder and prayed for her. After I was done praying, she looked up at me through tears and said "you are the first person, besides hospital staff, who has touched me in nearly a year." I was obviously surprised, and she continued "I think everybody is afraid they'll catch cancer from me." WOW... so I hugged her! Not a usual thing I do, but it was part of my "school of hard knocks" and "lessons learned".

Again, you're making me think... It's not so much that I "pray for them expecting them to be healed" as it is that I seem to get a sense inside that "this one is going to be healed"... An old rancher friend of mine in my congregation was involved in a head-on collision and was very badly injured. Doctors said he would never walk, and chances of survival were pretty slim. When I saw him in the hospital, he looked BAD, but something in his eye as I talked to him, and something inside me ... I just knew he was going to make it. So I prayed for him, and as God is my witness, within 6 months he WALKED up the isle of my church (haltingly and with the aid of a walker) to thank the Church for prayers.

I never really think about "why", i just seem to "do". But it's good to think, too.

When ever I'm in the hospital, and the situation allows for it, I touch the person I'm praying for. I often trace the cross on the person's forhead in dire cases an recite the baptismal blessing our denomination uses from the Book of Common Worship.

The touch is healing in many ways. Tony Campolo tells a great story of praying with a man who had cancer. His wife came to him some weeks later and said, "you prayed for him and laid hands on him. He had cancer." Tony though that meant he had been cured. But she continued, "He died." Tony was distraught. But she continued again, "But your prayer meant so much. He had been so angry, he would rave against the God he he trusted. He was miserable to be around. But they you laid your hands on him and prayed and things changed. He became at peace and the last three days were the best of our lives. Praying, crying, laughing. Tony, he wasn't cured...but he was healed."

That's the power of touch. That's the power of prayer.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Well maybe I misunderstood your initial description, Preacher. If you're just praying for someone, I can't argue against that. The laying on of hands deal, though, suggested to me that you were involved in some sort of miracle ministry whereby the pastor(s) attracted people by promising (implicitly or explicitly) to land hands on them and heal them.

Jesus told his disciples, just before his ascension, to make disciples, "teaching them to KEEP ON DOING "everything I taught you to do."
Matthew 28:18-20
18. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority (power) in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19. Go therefore [because of my power] and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20. and teaching them to keep everything (that is, practice everything) that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (practice them to the end of the age, by his authority, now, and until then.)

Originally posted by Obsidian

Contrary to what Ty has just argued, the Bible does not say to lay hands on anyone for healing, not even in James. It says that if you are a righteous man -- as Elijah was and presumably the church elders are -- God is likely to answer your prayers.

"if you are a righteous man?"
Duh, all Christians have been MADE the righteousness of God, in Christ.
2nd Cor. 5:21
21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


You don't know what the Bible says! Of course the Bible says to"lay hands on the sick and they will recover." Jesus had just said: "These signs will follow those who believe in my name:" (Mark 16:17-18)



Luke 10:17 confirms that the use of Jesus' name makes miraculous power work:
17. And the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."

To continued to do "everything I commanded you to do" includes these things:
Matthew 10:1
1. And having summoned His twelve disciples, He gave them authority (power) over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Luke 10:8-9
8. "And whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat what is set before you;
9. and heal those in it who are sick, [this is a COMMAND] and say to them, `The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

Originally posted by Obsidian

Cessationism does not mean that God will not work miracles. It means that certain spectacular spiritual gifts have ceased or at the very least altered their form of operation since the end of the apostolic period.

THAT is called 'adding to the scripture' things it DOES NOT SAY!
Peter, speaking of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, said, in Acts 2:38-39;
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39. "For the promise is for you and your children [two generations], and for all who are far off (all future generations), as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." The Lord is still calling the many to Himself.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Originally, a common spiritual gift a believer might receive was prophecy. Another was the ability to speak foreign languages. Another was to interpret these languages. Another was to provide miraculous healing.

These same things still happen where they are believed for. They much more rarely happen when they are not expected.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Cessationism means that miracles will probably be diminished in frequency compared to the apostolic period, because we don't have spiritually-ordained miracle-workers running around anymore. Miracles only occur when God/Jesus himself directs them.

"probably be diminished" you said? Go ahead and admit you do not know, as I said. If you don't have 'spiritually ordained miracle workers' it is your churches' own fault. The Bible never said those gifts would end.
1st Corinthians 1:5-8 clearly states that the gifts will be confirmed (that is, they will last), all the way to the Coming of the Lord:
5. that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge,
6. even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
7. so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation (coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8. who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As to 1st Corinthians 13, you said,

Originally posted by Obsidian

Actually, the Bible fits the context better than love does.

This statement is dumb. The chapter is called "The Love Chapter" since it repeatedly says, "Love is" as it EXPOUNDS ON LOVE. Therefore the CONTEXT is LOVE

Originally posted by Obsidian

The passage explicitly states that tongues and prophecy will "cease" and "pass away" at some point. The point at which they pass away is when the perfect arrives. If the perfect is love, then that means that we will stop prophecying when we have perfect love.

If that wasn't so bad an interpretation, it would be funny. It says,
1. If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels [tongues of angels are not 'known human languages'], but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
2. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3. And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing [it will not be successful].

Notice how many times it says, IF.
Notice that it is saying he could have the gifts of tongues, and understand mysteries and all knowledge, and have the gift of mountain-moving faith, and the gift of prophecy, and he could have them IN THE ABSENCE OF LOVE, but it will not bring success [profit].

He is saying that in the absence of love the gifts will fail, as in falter, and not work.
8. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail [without love]; whether there are tongues, they will cease (did languages cease?); whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. (without perfect love)
10. But when that which is perfect [perfect love, 1st John 4:18] has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
"In part" prophesying will be replaced by "In Love," unfailing prophesying.

1st John 4:18
18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear.

Miraculous gifts work by FAITH, and faith WORKS BY LOVE.
Galations 5:6
6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Originally posted by Obsidian

And I don't really understand how you're distinguishing "word of knowledge" from "prophecy."

1st Corinthians 13:2 makes the distinction. Prophecy is an 'utterance gift.' While a word of knowledge is a knowledge and understanding gift.
Christians who have the baptism of the Holy Spirit to the overflow walk and converse in an intimacy with the Holy Spirit, and He teaches us, to supernaturally know the gifts and what they each are, and to recognize them when they are present, and we learn to use them.

"if you are a righteous man?"
Duh, all Christians have been MADE the righteousness of God, in Christ.

That's not the righteousness James is talking about. James is talking about the righteousness that comes from obedience (James 1:25), not simply the righteousness imputed by faith. Your tendency to equate the two has distorted the gospel in your mind, at least based on what I've heard you say about how to get saved.

8. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail [without love]; whether there are tongues, they will cease (did languages cease?); whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. (without perfect love)
10. But when that which is perfect [perfect love, 1st John 4:18] has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Yes, the gift of languages ceased. He's obviously not talking about language in general, but about the gift of speaking in foreign languages. The same thing happened to prophecy. But with regard to languages, have you ever heard one of your Charismatic friends speak in unlearned Russian or Chinese, instead of simply an "angelic language" of glossolalia?

Originally posted by Obsidian

That's not the righteousness James is talking about. James is talking about the righteousness that comes from obedience (James 1:25), not simply the righteousness imputed by faith. Your tendency to equate the two has distorted the gospel in your mind, at least based on what I've heard you say about how to get saved.

Obsidian,
The more you post, the more you show that you do not know what you are talking about concerning things charismatic.

There are NOT two kinds of righteousness. The James 1:25 reference's context is not 'another righteousness.'

It says,
22. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24. for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
25. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26. If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless.
27. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Charismatic Christians do those things.

Your self-blinded idea that Charismatic Christians are in some way 'unrighteous' is STUPID!

We are more devoted to living in obedience to the Word of God, in the Faith, than 9/10s of Christians, including YOU. You are not a DOER of the Word, you say the 'doing' was supposed to cease.

Originally posted by Obsidian

Yes, the gift of languages ceased. He's obviously not talking about language in general, but about the gift of speaking in foreign languages. The same thing happened to prophecy. But with regard to languages, have you ever heard one of your Charismatic friends speak in unlearned Russian or Chinese, instead of simply an "angelic language" of glossolalia?

It has been seen and heard of, that people spoke in tongues, but didn't know it was a language like Russian or Chinese until they were told later.

No, the gift of languages and tongues did not cease. You haven't been paying attention. The church got so dark into the Dark Ages, that it was rarely known. But since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Azusa Street in 1903-06, The mighty power of the Holy Spirit's gifts have been growing back into their rightful useage again.

Jesus gave the church APOSTLES, PROPHETS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, AND TEACHERS, and their gifts, to build the church up and equip the church, see Eph. 4:8-13

8. Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.''
9. (Now this, "He ascended'' what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13. till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Do you see "till" that starts off verse 13? It means something must happen that the GIFTS are to help bring about.
UNTIL, UNTIL, UNTIL!!!
We all come into the unity of the faith...and attain the measure of the stature of THE ANOINTED (meaning, Christ)

Stop being IGNORANT with an unbridled tongue. "No man can tame the tongue" James said, in James 3, but the Holy Spirit CAN!

The training you received on the charismata was WRONG. Get it right. All you have to do is investigate. And I don't mean going to your cessationist fools who taught you your garbage.

Ty, if there are not two kinds of righteousness, then wasn't James just wasting his breath when he told his "brethren" that they should start acting righteous?

And I'd still like to know if you or any of your friends has ever spoken in unlearned Chinese.

Originally posted by TyRockwell

Obsidian,
The more you post, the more you show that you do not know what you are talking about concerning things charismatic.

There are NOT two kinds of righteousness. The James 1:25 reference's context is not 'another righteousness.'

It says,
22. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24. for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
25. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26. If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless.
27. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Charismatic Christians do those things.

Your self-blinded idea that Charismatic Christians are in some way 'unrighteous' is STUPID!

We are more devoted to living in obedience to the Word of God, in the Faith, than 9/10s of Christians, including YOU. You are not a DOER of the Word, you say the 'doing' was supposed to cease.



It has been seen and heard of, that people spoke in tongues, but didn't know it was a language like Russian or Chinese until they were told later.

No, the gift of languages and tongues did not cease. You haven't been paying attention. The church got so dark into the Dark Ages, that it was rarely known. But since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Azusa Street in 1903-06, The mighty power of the Holy Spirit's gifts have been growing back into their rightful useage again.

Jesus gave the church APOSTLES, PROPHETS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, AND TEACHERS, and their gifts, to build the church up and equip the church, see Eph. 4:8-13

8. Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.''
9. (Now this, "He ascended'' what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13. till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Do you see "till" that starts off verse 13? It means something must happen that the GIFTS are to help bring about.
UNTIL, UNTIL, UNTIL!!!
We all come into the unity of the faith...and attain the measure of the stature of THE ANOINTED (meaning, Christ)

Stop being IGNORANT with an unbridled tongue. "No man can tame the tongue" James said, in James 3, but the Holy Spirit CAN!

The training you received on the charismata was WRONG. Get it right. All you have to do is investigate. And I don't mean going to your cessationist fools who taught you your garbage.

My, isn't this post just brimming with the fruit of the Spirit?

How charismatic do you have to get before you get to be one of the Christians that can blast other Christians? Apparently that's the criteria for being divisive.

Originally posted by Michelle

My, isn't this post just brimming with the fruit of the Spirit?

Well you know, the fruits don't really matter. It's the gifts I tell you, only the gifts! It's about what you get not about what you give. Come on Michelle!

Originally posted by Michelle

My, isn't this post just brimming with the fruit of the Spirit?

I'm sayin!

Originally posted by Obsidian

Ty, if there are not two kinds of righteousness, then wasn't James just wasting his breath when he told his "brethren" that they should start acting righteous?

No, he wasn't wasting his breath. In Christ, the many are made righteous. Sometimes persons have to be reminded to act in that righteousness.

Originally posted by Obsidian

And I'd still like to know if you or any of your friends has ever spoken in unlearned Chinese.

Yes, they have.

Who, when and where and under what circumstances?