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Supernatural ?
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headheart is offline
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Old
  August 5th 2009 , 10:31 PM
 
 
Last edited by headheart : August 5th 2009 at 10:44 PM .  
 
 
Reason: link, syntax, revamp. lol
I think I have always believed in the supernatural, or rather something other than what is observed by our five senses.

I recently read a really good article by JP Moreland all about the mind. Moreland is a professor and seems to know what he is talking about. (I once heard him lecture about Ecclesiastes, and it was really very insightul.) JP also has a passion to get Christians discussing these matters with the world. (by that I mean the people living on our planet, of course).

Lately, I read a very interesting discussion about a lecture ((((VIDEO))) given by John Lennox - here < watch it!

Read this thoughtful response to Lennox's video...

One thing I do disagree with him though is his comment about how science can render the existence of miracles "improbable". In a sense it can, but in a strict mathematical sense it cannot. Take, as an example, resurrection. What science can say about the resurrection is that resurrection is not the norm, given only the natural system of things. Normally, in nature, dead bodies do not regain life.

However, if we want to examine the probability of an event, we must consider the full probability of the event, not just the probability of the events occurrence given nature alone. We must also consider the probability of the events occurrence given a different (and possibly true) hypothesis, such as the existence of the supernatural.
Any thoughts ?

Sincerely,
HH

 
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Old
  August 5th 2009 , 11:27 PM
 
Last edited by showmeproof : August 5th 2009 at 11:46 PM .  
 
 
think I have always believed in the supernatural, or rather something other than what is observed by our five senses.
There is a lot of nature that is not directly observable by our senses. Gravity, electromagenetic forces, atoms and their constituent parts, etc. However, why go as far as to say that they are supernatural, or more directly why attribute everything that is not immediately observable to our sense as the workings of an anthropomorphic supernatural agent.
I recently read a really good article by JP Moreland all about the mind. Moreland is a professor and seems to know what he is talking about. (I once heard him lecture about Ecclesiastes, and it was really very insightul.) JP also has a passion to get Christians discussing these matters with the world. (by that I mean the people living on our planet, of course).
Which article?
Lately, I read a very interesting discussion about a lecture ((((VIDEO))) given by John Lennox - here < watch it!
I've watched many debates with John Lennox, and have read some of his works. I'll watch the video you posted as well. Polkinghorne is another interesting bloke along the same lines as Lennox. Polkinghorne, a prior mathematical physicist turned pastor, uses the choas theory as 'proof' of the supernatural and the occurrence of miracles. His argument goes (paraphrasing from memory):
There are trillions of particles in the air in this room (He was giving a lecture) colliding about many times/second, and you should theoretically be able calculate how each particle will interact, yet we can't do this because if you miss just one particle in your equation you've boggled the whole enterprise of predicting the outcome. He then utilizes the Uncertainty Principle in that you can't both know the position and velocity of a particle to a high degree of accuracy, to confound the problem. He then comes to the conclusion, therefore god exists and he has room to work his miracles. I've heard Lennox use similar arguments.
However, I find this an odd argument for the 'supernatural'. They've boxed the supernatural into the quantum, where previously apologists gave god the stage of any which way he would so choose, by suspending natural laws. In other words they claim, the supernatural is not a suspension of natural law, but just a really complex interaction that we are unable to solve the equation for. This is interesting indeed.
I still don't see how they get to the conclusion of 'therefore god exists' from the complexity, not to mention the impossible task of solving an equation with trillions of variables. This reminds me of two things 1) A cartoon in which two mathematicians are working at a problem on a black board, one fellow thinks he has solved the equation and has God did it emphatically underscored to denote his conclusion. The other fellow has a questioning look on his face, and expounds, I think you need to clarify a bit. 2)Stephen Hawking quips in a brief history of time about such equations essentially saying that the largest computers on earth couldn't compute them, and even if you were able to come up with an answer how would you know you didn't mess up on page 1393938349342349283432490324. In other words determination via mathematical equations is nonsensical. Hawking, Polkinghorne, and Lennox are all on the same page here. However, Polkinghorne, and Lennox come to the god did it. Hawking does not. Obviously it isn't such a cut and dry as Lennox and Polkinghorne suggest to their flocks.

 
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Old
  August 6th 2009 , 06:50 AM
 
Last edited by headheart : August 6th 2009 at 06:55 AM .  
 
 
There is a lot of nature that is not directly observable by our senses. Gravity, electromagenetic forces, atoms and their constituent parts, etc. However, why go as far as to say that they are supernatural, or more directly why attribute everything that is not immediately observable to our sense as the workings of an anthropomorphic supernatural agent.
.
Of course, what was I thinking? I dashed this post down in a semi-state of sleep and you are right -- there is so much that our five senses cannot grasp. Things that need to be understood, and things that are sometimes beyond our comprehension. (that I have found out the hard way)

Rather than head off into the various arguments for and against the existence of an 'anthropmorphic supernatural agent', could we just focus on the as yet unexplained (Or, Supernatural ? ) < question mark.

Which article?
Does the Argument From Mind Provide Evidence for God ? by J.P. Moreland - I have read it a few times, and will not say that I understand it all. It is also part of a series of four articles (also on this site.)


I've watched many debates with John Lennox, and have read some of his works. I'll watch the video you posted as well.
Okay.

Polkinghorne is another interesting bloke along the same lines as Lennox. Polkinghorne, a prior mathematical physicist turned pastor, uses the choas theory as 'proof' of the supernatural and the occurrence of miracles. His argument goes (paraphrasing from memory):
There are trillions of particles in the air in this room (He was giving a lecture) colliding about many times/second, and you should theoretically be able calculate how each particle will interact, yet we can't do this because if you miss just one particle in your equation you've boggled the whole enterprise of predicting the outcome. He then utilizes the Uncertainty Principle in that you can't both know the position and velocity of a particle to a high degree of accuracy, to confound the problem. He then comes to the conclusion, therefore god exists and he has room to work his miracles.
My head is already spinning. I am an artist, not a mathematical physicist, but I am willing to learn. My sons who have studied both Mathematics and Physics, breath a different air but we meet in the middle with the idea of the Great Arist.

I've heard Lennox use similar arguments.

However, I find this an odd argument for the 'supernatural'. They've boxed the supernatural into the quantum, where previously apologists gave god the stage of any which way he would so choose, by suspending natural laws. In other words they claim, the supernatural is not a suspension of natural law, but just a really complex interaction that we are unable to solve the equation for. This is interesting indeed.
Yes, I have been trying to understand Alvin Plantinga's ideas about this, but it is out of my reach. I look forward to the interaction between your mind and the minds of others on this thread. ( I shall look on with others who are learning.)

I still don't see how they get to the conclusion of 'therefore god exists' from the complexity, not to mention the impossible task of solving an equation with trillions of variables.
Have you read Godel ? I tried and decided that my sons might enjoy him. My brain is just not equipped for these lofty arguments. I just thought out of respect for your goodly reply, I should at least make and effort to read what you have written.

This reminds me of two things

1) A cartoon in which two mathematicians are working at a problem on a black board, one fellow thinks he has solved the equation and has God did it emphatically underscored to denote his conclusion. The other fellow has a questioning look on his face, and expounds, I think you need to clarify a bit.



2)Stephen Hawking quips in a brief history of time about such equations essentially saying that the largest computers on earth couldn't compute them, and even if you were able to come up with an answer how would you know you didn't mess up on page 1393938349342349283432490324.



In other words determination via mathematical equations is nonsensical. Hawking, Polkinghorne, and Lennox are all on the same page here. However, Polkinghorne, and Lennox come to the god did it. Hawking does not. Obviously it isn't such a cut and dry as Lennox and Polkinghorne suggest to their flocks
Yes.

I was once asked if there was an experiment I might perform to prove my experiences. I replied that if they had the time to go walking with me, I would be happy to show the way. I am not saying that the thoughts of an 'anthropomorphic natural and supernatural agent' cannot be heard (non-audible) by everyone, but that there is definitely a process that one needs to subject oneself to, in order to make those discoveries personal.

I will not be offended if you do not reply to my silly reply.

Sincerely,
HH

 
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Old
  August 7th 2009 , 06:29 AM
 
 
 
 
Which article?


Does the Argument From Mind Provide Evidence for God ? by J.P. Moreland - I have read it a few times, and will not say that I understand it all. It is also part of a series of four articles (also on this site.)

Looking forward to your thoughts about this and John Lennox's video lecture (as per my op) - here < watch it!

Sincerely,
HH

 
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Old
  August 9th 2009 , 09:04 PM
 
 
 
 
These three stanzas from J.P. Moreland's (set of four lectures) - in particular the one linked to above, might be worth thinking about. ;)

As we saw above, the existence of minds and consciousness would threaten evolutionary theory’s plausibility. The naturalistic explanation of the nature of man, however, begs the question by simply assuming that we are wholly physical beings. It gives us no reason to think that minds and consciousness do not exist.

The real issue, then, is the evidence for and against the immaterial, nonphysical nature of minds and consciousness. If the evidence is good, then we should embrace the idea that mental states and physical states are essentially different and that evolutionary theory cannot account for the former. But we have seen that the evidence is good. Mental states possess four features not owned by physical states, and evolutionary theory seems fundamentally incapable of explaining the existence of mental states. This means not only that the evolutionary argument fails but also that there will never be a complete naturalistic account of the nature and origin of human consciousness.

It will not do to claim that consciousness simply “emerged” from matter when it reached a certain level of complexity because “emergence” is merely a label for (rather than an explanation of) the phenomena being explained. Since we are made in God’s image, there should be something about us that can’t be adequately explained without postulating God’s existence. And that is the case with mind and consciousness. Their reality supports the falsity of naturalism and the truth of theism.

Does the Argument From Mind Provide Evidence for God ? by J.P. Moreland
There are a few more videos on the Lennox site - link

Journey Safe,
HH.

 
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