Originally posted by JAYMZ

2 Timothy 2:11-13

Your point?

[quote=Seasanctuary;2780295]How does a person who believes she is a Christian determine she really is a Christian as opposed to only thinking she is a Christian?

Why does she think she is a Christian?

Most of the atheists I know are apostates as well.
What's hard to believe about that? People change their religious beliefs all the time. Jews, Hindus, and Muslims convert to Christianity and I see nobody doubting them.
I hope we're not talking about the no true scotsman fallacy.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

Why does she think she is a Christian?

* Believes the Gospel.
* Sincerely credits and praises God.
* Wants to stop sinning.

From a christian perspective, something actually true takes place ( between God and man ) when someone repents from their sins and puts their faith in christ.
Most christians believe that someone with true saving faith will never go on latter to deny Christ. ( or God for that matter )

If this does happen, maybe that person just had a " said " faith instead of true heart felt faith.

We need to make a distinction between a one time emotional experience and true repentance.
Ultimately only God knows those who are His.

Originally posted by JAYMZ

Ultimately only God knows those who are His.

There are passages where Paul, I think, address his audience so that they may be assured, or somesuch. There are self-tests ready in the Bible, like I John, that guarantee that salvation can be assured via conscience and conviction of the Spirit.

It's the ultimate OSAS cop out. let's say there is an atheist who claims he was a born again Christian. the Calvinist, etc., can simply shrug him off, unjustifiably, as one who was not a true Christian in the first place.

It's a play of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, really.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

a) they were never truly saved

I added the rest of the answer so it'd be clearer what I was answering.

By the time I've gotten around to answering this, it seems it's been pretty well covered by others. The difficulty, of course, lies in presuming you can know the true state of someone's soul pre-deconversion. There are those that go through this process because they are fed misinformation and remain unaware. When the truth comes out, they feel betrayed. It is a regrettable occurence, but one that is not linked to the actuality of someone's salvation. If they never were truly saved, it's potentially better that they deconvert.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

This is an old topic, but I have not seen any really new topics, but reading the Victor Stenger thread got me going on it again. According to my understanding of the Bible there can not be former Christians. Those who make such a claim are fooling themselves.

I presume you take that understanding from Paul?
That may be his understanding but it's not mine nor many other ex-christians experience.

Originally posted by Jaecp

There are plenty of former christians, theological claims that we were never really christians accomplishes what Jeb?

It gives theological authority to a "no true Scotsman" argument, which makes the argument unimpeachable in the mind of the arguer.

Well, yeah,

I was hoping he'd give me more than that. I'm familiar with the line of reasoning that any christian whod leave obviously wasnt a real christian in the first place. I've had it leveled at me before.

Originally posted by Jaecp

I was hoping he'd give me more than that.

There's nothing more to give--but from the believer's view, there doesn't need to be any more.

Originally posted by Matt M

Why is it that the wolf howls in the moonlight?

all_His_children.jpg

It is calling to its brothers and sisters.

Owoooooooooooooooooo___________________!

We had better hurry now and run to our howling brothers and sisters and remind them that they are family.

Owoooooooooooooooooo____________________!
HH.

Originally posted by SlapShot

Most of the atheists I know are apostates as well.
What's hard to believe about that? People change their religious beliefs all the time. Jews, Hindus, and Muslims convert to Christianity and I see nobody doubting them.
I hope we're not talking about the no true scotsman fallacy.

The no true scotsman fallacy need not be a fallacy at all. If there is a specific definition for a scotsman, anyone who fails that definition is no true scotsman.

Originally posted by Seasanctuary

* Believes the Gospel.
* Sincerely credits and praises God.
* Wants to stop sinning.

Misses the mark. A Christian trusts the Gospel, not just believes it is true.