Some time back, months or maybe a year or more, I had a similar discussion with “Doubting John.” He proclaimed that he had held a sincere and strong faith in Christ, but had fallen away. I told him a bit of a story.

I know personally of two men, I don’t know them personally, but one of them introduced a friend of mine to the Lord. This man had spent a normal life as a Christian minister. Then he retired. After retirement, he met the Lord Jesus, and went back to ministry. Why should I believe you (whoever you are) when you tell me when you tell me you were a Christian, but are no longer a believer? Are you not just the reverse of this man who thought he was a Christian for years, then met Christ later? I know a number of folks who were raised in churches and considered themselves Christians. At some point in time the met the Lord Jesus and became Christians. One of these men is now the pastor of my Church.

Doubting John never tried to respond to that question. Why should I believe one who say’s “I was a believer” when I know folks who thought they were believers and learned better. Examine yourself.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

That is a complex question I don't care to discuss with you.

Why did you start a thread on the Apologetics forum if you didn't want to discuss the topic with unbelievers? Just to assert a doctrine which is controversial among Christians?

Originally posted by Silent Running

While, like Jed, I do not want to get into issues of verbal formulation, suffice it to say that I believed Jesus was God, that He died on a cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and would return for us. I placed my trust in Him to save me from sin.

Very Well. At what point did you think you knew this with certainty? And why? What made you think you really knew God personally?

Originally posted by Silent Running

Further reading into the Gospels persuaded me that there were promises Jesus made that had become broken--Matthew 24 is a classic example. The futurists explain away this broken promise by saying "this generation" doesn't really mean "this generation"; the preterists explain away this promise by saying that "return" doesn't really mean "return"; but taken as the text says, the promise is broken.

Jesus isn't coming back. There is no "return." And I placed my faith in a broken promise.

How do futurists explain "this generation" away? I understand perterists think this was a historic past event for similar reasons you think it is a failed promise. A similar argument can be made about the Apostle Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:51, "We shall not all sleep." The Apostle Paul and those Corinthians have since died, that is to say, "sleep."

Place what the text says, side by side with the various explanations. Identify the suppositions being made beyond what the text says. If those Biblical passages are patently false, any supposed explanations will be shown that they can not be true. Suppositions without any Biblical support.

Originally posted by Silent Running

Now, the maturity of years (and continued study) has led me to be persuaded that Jesus never uttered the words in Matthew 24 ... but if one chapter in the Gospels is unreliable, how can I trust the rest?

That comes in agreement with your current unbelief. And your previous understanding of Matthew 24 as was proven false.

Originally posted by Seasanctuary

Why did you start a thread on the Apologetics forum if you didn't want to discuss the topic with unbelievers? Just to assert a doctrine which is controversial among Christians?

You have already shown that you will just change what you say to try to alter the outcome. However, I think the question is being discussed here anyhow. Think introspection.

Originally posted by headheart

'If you talk him into it, sure enough someone will talk him out of it later on.' It seems you were too easily talked out of it, how then shall you be saved if all you are is talked out it, and by a convincing talk restored to your weak position of 'I now trust Christ again' Except a man be born again, he shall not see the kingdom of GOD.

Nicely put.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

You have already shown that you will just change what you say to try to alter the outcome.

Since this calls my character into question, I'll clarify. I'm not upset because I see how what I wrote might have been construed that way.

Me: "How does a person who believes she is a Christian determine she really is a Christian as opposed to only thinking she is a Christian?"

You: "Why does she think she is a Christian?"

Me: "Believes the Gospel. Sincerely credits and praises God. Wants to stop sinning."

You: "Misses the mark. A Christian trusts the Gospel, not just believes it is true."

Me: 'Feel free to add that to the list, and anything else necessary to pass your "correct verbal formulation" test'


I didn't mean "feel free to add to the list and I'll claim anything applied to me." It was an invitation to list what you consider to be the difference between a false Christian and a true Christian so I -- and everyone else in this thread -- could see and consider your criteria. I'm not going to automatically affirm just anything about my past self. But I don't think it's fair for you to imply I'm being dishonest if I affirm something beyond the wording of my first summary.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

Some time back, months or maybe a year or more, I had a similar discussion with “Doubting John.” He proclaimed that he had held a sincere and strong faith in Christ, but had fallen away. I told him a bit of a story.

I know personally of two men, I don’t know them personally, but one of them introduced a friend of mine to the Lord. This man had spent a normal life as a Christian minister. Then he retired. After retirement, he met the Lord Jesus, and went back to ministry. Why should I believe you (whoever you are) when you tell me when you tell me you were a Christian, but are no longer a believer? Are you not just the reverse of this man who thought he was a Christian for years, then met Christ later? I know a number of folks who were raised in churches and considered themselves Christians. At some point in time the met the Lord Jesus and became Christians. One of these men is now the pastor of my Church.

Doubting John never tried to respond to that question. Why should I believe one who say’s “I was a believer” when I know folks who thought they were believers and learned better. Examine yourself.

The error here is to apply one person's story to another, without actually knowing that the stories are similar. You may hazard a guess that my situation was the reverse of the people you are speaking of, but unless you know what is in my heart, that is all you have--a guess.

Originally posted by 37818

Very Well. At what point did you think you knew this with certainty? And why? What made you think you really knew God personally?

What makes you think that I had any doubts?

How do futurists explain "this generation" away?

By claiming that "this generation" actually means "that generation (that shall see these signs)". The two words are distinct in Aramaic and in Greek, just as they are in English. Nevertheless, as I said, I have become persuaded that Jesus never uttered the words in Matthew 24, nor the parallel passages.

A similar argument can be made about the Apostle Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:51, "We shall not all sleep." The Apostle Paul and those Corinthians have since died, that is to say, "sleep."

Actually, this need not be seen as such if Paul was speaking of Christians in general--it only becomes questionable if Paul was speaking of his audience now alive. Unlike the previous issue, Greek language allows either reading.

Originally posted by Seasanctuary

Since this calls my character into question, I'll clarify. I'm not upset because I see how what I wrote might have been construed that way.

. . .

But I don't think it's fair for you to imply I'm being dishonest if I affirm something beyond the wording of my first summary.

Okay, I misunderstood. My apologies.

The bottom line in the original post is that it does not matter what you believe about God. What matters is if you are trusting Jesus as your only way to salvation. Therefore, if you are claiming to be a Christian and must keep finding "evidence" for the existence of God, you are no Christian. Christian faith is described in the book of Hebrews as being "sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." That means that one is already convinced of the existence of a creator beyond the universe, and convinced that Jesus is the route that creator has established as the only way out.

An examination of self and what you believe, plus what Shadowmaster talked about in detecting ones own attempts at self delusion, will help reveal where you are.

I have to go right now, but I will get back later or tomorrow. Ask away.

Originally posted by Silent Running

..........., that is all you have--a guess.

Hi Silent Running.
I'm sorry, for presuming to know anything about your life; just based on a few words.
I remember you presenting some pretty compelling stuff in Biblical Languages 301, so I better shut up!

Sincerely,
HH

Originally posted by headheart

Hi Silent Running.
I'm sorry, for presuming to know anything about your life; just based on a few words.
I remember you presenting some pretty compelling stuff in Biblical Languages 301, so I better shut up!

Woah! Wait! Stop! Halt!

Listen to what I say, and please listen very closely.(Well, listen, read, you know what I mean. )

I did not, and do not, take what you said as presuming, or as intruding: I have placed these words before all who read this forum not as a way to separate me from the people who read them--to the contrary, what I say on this forum is intended for people to get to know me. Sometimes that process of getting to know each other is ... hazardous. From time to time, people accidentally kick metaphorical shins. Those who do so accidentally, with no malice, I hold no grudges against, nor do I see what you did as being a "jerk." (One does occasionally encounter someone who does so intentionally, but I generally just place such a one on ignore.)

In your case, perhaps you did presume, but in doing so you also opened part of your life--part of your heart--to me, and to the others here. I could not but honor such, even if I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

Originally posted by Silent Running

While, like Jed, I do not want to get into issues of verbal formulation, suffice it to say that I believed Jesus was God, that He died on a cross, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and would return for us. I placed my trust in Him to save me from sin.

Further reading into the Gospels persuaded me that there were promises Jesus made that had become broken--Matthew 24 is a classic example. The futurists explain away this broken promise by saying "this generation" doesn't really mean "this generation"; the preterists explain away this promise by saying that "return" doesn't really mean "return"; but taken as the text says, the promise is broken.

Jesus isn't coming back. There is no "return." And I placed my faith in a broken promise.

Now, the maturity of years (and continued study) has led me to be persuaded that Jesus never uttered the words in Matthew 24 ... but if one chapter in the Gospels is unreliable, how can I trust the rest?

You will note that the Shadowmaster does not call himslf a "Christian" but , rather, a Christ Follower. That is intentionally to avoid the standard impressions that "Christian" carries with it. Among those are a belief in an infallible Bible. The Shadowmaster does not belive in an infallible Bible but is a Christ Follower. He considers your loss of faith to be one in bibliolitry, not in Jesus Christ.

Your faith was in the Bible and that is what you lost.

Uh that's very generous of you. I shall remember not to be so shy in future.

I wish I could be helpful to you about the passage in Matt. 24 but the truth is that I don't really share the same intrigue that others do with the subject of Eschatology, having burned myself out writing two books and sitting on a third about the afterlife. I suspect you have listened to DD's podcast 'Climbing Mount Olivet' ?

I used to be very into Soteriology, but practical Pneumatology is my primary indulgence these days, via song writing and pastels. The quill is trapped in the incubator!

Peace,
HH

Originally posted by shadowmaster

You will note that the Shadowmaster does not call himslf a "Christian" but , rather, a Christ Follower. That is intentionally to avoid the standard impressions that "Christian" carries with it. Among those are a belief in an infallible Bible. The Shadowmaster does not belive in an infallible Bible but is a Christ Follower. He considers your loss of faith to be one in bibliolitry, not in Jesus Christ.

Your faith was in the Bible and that is what you lost.

While I can see how you would come to such a conclusion based on my words here, please understand that this is the tip of the iceberg--there is more to the story in another thread. Yet that also begs the question--without a reliable witness, how do you know Jesus? No doubt your answer will be spiritual, and there is a measure of validity to that, but I have seen (far too often) how a spiritual answer may be good, or may be a product of self-deception.

Originally posted by Silent Running

Yet that also begs the question--without a reliable witness, how do you know Jesus?

I hope you don't mind me jumping on Shadowmaster's rollercoaster, but here is my 1p.

To me Jesus represents what it means to 'live truth'. I have found that there are only two kinds of people in this world, those who do and those who are in transition. Since I was a little boy, I have been driven to 'live truth' even when it hurt me, it led me to the one who is the truth, the life and the way.

I was once challenged to present an experiment to prove my experience of God, and I tried so hard to explain it to people. I am learning to say, if you want to find out what it is like, come and visit me and we can spend some time walking in the forest together. GOD is real to me, but to some GOD is no more than a fairy tale, a myth, an invisible pink unicorn, or some sort of spaghetti monster. Well, I think that when a person really really really wants to get to know God, God will go out of His way to help them to that place. It is the story Jesus told of the prodigal son.

Some people are wierd, they are like deep valleys, and no matter how much you fill them, they are never full. I tend to avoid them if I can.

Peace,
HH.

Originally posted by MrManNo1

It must be depressing not reading any literature, having experiences, enjoying your food, or anything else that's not "scientifically verified." If you want to complain about something being not "scientifically verified", you had better be sure that you know what the consequences of that are.

Historically, the consequences of acting on that which is not scientifically verified, have been murderous battles over personal beliefs that cannot be proven to be true. And, what have the evolved consequences of people seeking to satisfy biological and psychological needs and avoid pain got to do with believing totally unsubstantiated speculative notions like ‘eternal souls’ or a ‘divine spark’ within?