PLEASE NOTE: NON LDS please read!!!

This question is ONLY for LDS members. Please respect my wishes and if you want to dialogue with those who present their ideas; either do so privately or by putting up your own thread.

Sincerely,
HH.

__________________________________________________

Dear members of the Lattter Day Saints,

I have been a Christian for 33 years and over the last ten years or so, I have been attempting to develop a Systematic Theology, but have found very few non-LDS who were able to answer this particular question adequately or consistently.
I realize I could just go to one of your websites and read what your Church teaches, but I am much more interested in discussing this idea with actual LDS members; on my favourite forum. *Theology Web Campus* If you prefer to discuss this with me directly or privately, please feel free to join my buddy list and write to me that way. So here is the question.....

What do you understand to be the nature of man:

1. Before conception
2. At conception
3. At birth
4. Before the cognizance of morality
5. After Baptism
6. In eternity ( what sort of nature will we have ?)

Sincerely,
HH.

Hi, HH. Since the term "nature" can mean different or even multiple things to different people, do you want to first tell us which definition of "nature" you want our responses to be about? Thanks.

Originally posted by nrajeff

Hi, HH. Since the term "nature" can mean different or even multiple things to different people, do you want to first tell us which definition of "nature" you want our responses to be about? Thanks.

Hi, nrajeff.

Thank you for asking.

By "nature", I mean essense or spirit.
Where as many Christians believe in a triune "nature" of man, I prefer to use a single word for this "nature" which is "essense".

If you want me to further qualify what I mean, I will be happy to do so.

Sincerely,
HH

Add:#1 - before conception:

God is your Father in Heaven ( Matthew 6:9 ). We call God Heavenly Father because He is the Father of our spirits (MY ADD: Hebrews 12:9 ) and we are created in His image ( Genesis 1:27 ).
From: Mormon.org - God is our Heavenly Father

Perhaps this will be a good place to start.

Here is the passage from the NET Bible and their commentary, plus one that I used from time to time:

NET © Besides, we have experienced discipline from 1 our earthly fathers 2 and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? 3

NET © Notes
1 tn Grk “we had our earthly fathers as discipliners.”
2 tn Grk “the fathers of our flesh.” In Hebrews, “flesh” is a characteristic way of speaking about outward, physical, earthly life (cf. Hebrews 5:7 ; Hebrews 9:10 and Hebrews 9:13 ), as opposed to the inward or spiritual dimensions of life.
3 tn Grk “and live.”sn Submit ourselves…to the Father of spirits and receive life. This idea is drawn from Proverbs, where the Lord’s discipline brings life, while resistance to it leads to death (cf. Proverbs 4:13 ; Proverbs 6:23 ; Proverbs 10:17 ; Proverbs 16:17 ).

'The Father of spirits; a reference to GOD as the creator of the human spirit ; contrast 'fathers of the flesh' (AV,RV). The verse implies that beings thus created can know true life only by submission to GOD's control. (A.M. Stibbs)

I am also placing this same passage in 'Bible Languages 301' to get the benefit of the best scholarship available @ Theology Web Campus.

I look forward to any replies (as per) and to my opening post, and hope that this will be useful in getting 'the ball rolling' -- I will place up the Biblical Theology link as seperate comment ( in awhile -- it will probably take a few days for any commentary and such like to be generated. )

Sinerely,
HH

Add: #2 - Hebrews 12:9 - The Father of spirits @ BL301

Originally posted by headheart

Dear members of the Lattter Day Saints,

I have been a Christian for 33 years and over the last ten years or so, I have been attempting to develop a Systematic Theology, but have found very few non-LDS who were able to answer this particular question adequately or consistently.
I realize I could just go to one of your websites and read what your Church teaches, but I am much more interested in discussing this idea with actual LDS members; on my favourite forum. *Theology Web Campus* If you prefer to discuss this with me directly or privately, please feel free to join my buddy list and write to me that way. So here is the question.....

What do you understand to be the nature of man:

1. Before conception
2. At conception
3. At birth
4. Before the cognizance of morality
5. After Baptism
6. In eternity ( what sort of nature will we have ?)

Sincerely,
HH.

I'll give it a shot, but I may not have time to do it all.

1 Before conception:

Taken from The Family: A proclamation to the World.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life.

2. At conception

I don't know when the spirit actually enters the body, but I believe that a fetus has the potential to be a living human being, and is therefore considered human life. LDS doctrine states that mankind is innocent at birth--this would include at conception.

3. At birth

At birth, mankind is innocent and without sin. We are mortal and subject to temporal death. Children are not subject to temptation from satan until he or she reaches an age of accountability and is able to understand "things". Nor are children accountable for their choices until they begin to understand "things".

4. Before the cognizance of morality

I think this is what LDS would refer to as the age of accountability. LDS baptize their children at age 8, and that is about the age where we believe children naturally begin understand morality better. Before this time, children are innocent of sin.

I might add that we believe that what we inherit from Adam is mortality---the first death, where spirit and body separate. We don't accept the notion of inheriting a sin nature. We believe that man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. (Article of Faith #2) To make this possible, we believe that Jesus atoned for original guilt.

We are born INTO this fallen environment we call a probationary state where we are subject to temptation of the devil, and our own choices account for our individual natures whether for good or for evil. In other words, we don't bring a sin nature into the world when we are born, we are born into a sinful nature -or condition (like being born into a condition of squalor and poverty. Squalor is not our nature, it is the nature we were place into.)

5. After Baptism

Baptism is an essential ordinance of the Gospel. After baptism, our nature's don't change, but we now become accountable to follow gospel laws and principles. And repentance becomes necessary when those gospel laws and principles are broken. After baptism by immersion, then comes the baptism of the Holy Ghost, (or the gift of the Holy Ghost), which guides us and amplifies the still small voice of what we call our conscience. We are still held accountable for our choices, and we are not guaranteed eternal life. Eternal life requires moving toward obedience to gospel principles and laws, and repentance until obedience becomes a reality.

Christ's Atonement and His Grace makes both repentance and obedience possible.

6. In eternity ( what sort of nature will we have ?)

I assume you are talking about after the resurrection. (LDS believe in a time between death and the resurrection where significant things take place).

After the resurrection, we will inherit the glory that we are worthy of. There will be no more death, satan will be bound, we will face no temptation, we will live in God's presence, and become servants to God and take part in his great work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

There is more, but I hope this can be a starting point.

NRAJeff and others might have more to add, or clarifications to make. But this is the answer I would give to your questions were we sitting face to face.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain our beliefs.

Originally posted by headheart

Hi OtherCheek

Excellent!

Sincerely,
HH

Thanks. If I might add, I believe our natures change for the better and we become more God-like through our faith and obedience to the laws and principles of the gospel.

Our natures change for the worse when we submit to temptation, and refuse to repent and refuse to call upon God for His help in overcoming sin. Our natures change through FAITH in his name, which means action on our part, but that is a whole 'nother topic.

Thank you O.C

Actually it really depends where one 'hangs one's hat' -- metaphorically speaking.
As the years have passed what I had thought were big goldfish swimming in a pond, turned out to be no more than reflections of something I am still trying to figure out.
I love Mr Bean's funny words about the mysteriousness of the Cod. I had some Cod fishfingers today and they were yummy!

Sincerely,
HH

Originally posted by headheart

Thank you O.C

Actually it really depends where one 'hangs one's hat' -- metaphorically speaking.
As the years have passed what I had thought were big goldfish swimming in a pond, turned out to be no more than reflections of something I am still trying to figure out.
I love Mr Bean's funny words about the mysteriousness of the Cod. I had some Cod fishfingers today and they were yummy!

Sincerely,
HH

I saw Mr. Bean in one movie only. And my wife and I laughed our heads off as we saw him dismantle the Mona Lisa. But I missed that line, I guess.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

I saw Mr. Bean in one movie only. And my wife and I laughed our heads off as we saw him dismantle the Mona Lisa. But I missed that line, I guess.

The movie I am referring to was "Keeping Mum"

I managed to read through what you wrote (above) as well as 'God is our heavenly Father' and based on that have 4 passages for you to consider. (NASB please)

1. Hebrews 12:9 - Read : John Reece's comment
2. Colossians 1:20
3. Colossians 2:19
4. Ephesians 1:19-23 (19b)

Take care,
HH.

Hiya Headheart!!

Yo Jo

Originally posted by headheart

The movie I am referring to was "Keeping Mum"

I managed to read through what you wrote (above) as well as 'God is our heavenly Father' and based on that have 4 passages for you to consider. (NASB please)

1. Hebrews 12:9 - Read : John Reece's comment
2. Colossians 1:20
3. Colossians 2:19
4. Ephesians 1:19-23 (19b)

Take care,
HH.

I may be a bit dense, but at least I'm slow. (a joke)

I'm not sure what you are trying to show here, but the way I see it, each of these verses seem to teach about Mankind's dependence upon God.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

...... each of these verses seem to teach about Mankind's dependence upon God.

OtherCheek.

I spent about a few hours last night, and this morning carefully reading through 1-4 below, as well as carefully studying relative quotes and if that's all you get from those passages, then I think I will give it a miss, for now at least. I'm too tired to rehash my reply at the moment, but I will give it another go during the week.

1. God is your loving heavenly Father - here

God is your Father in Heaven (Matthew 6:9). We call God Heavenly Father because He is the Father of our spirits and we are created in His image ( Genesis 1:27).
God has a body that looks like yours, though His body is immortal, perfected, and has a glory beyond description. He knows you personally and loves you more than you can comprehend. To help you find happiness in this life and guide you to return to live with Him, Heavenly Father provided a plan called the gospel? of Jesus Christ, a guide based on the life and teachings of His Son, Jesus Christ.
From the beginning, Heavenly Father has called prophets? to testify, record His word, and provide His plan for His children on the earth. The teachings of prophets are found in sacred? books called scriptures? ( Amos 3:7).
Your Heavenly Father knows you and loves you and wants to help you return to Him. Your life on Earth is part of His plan for you to gain a body, learn, grow, and find joy. Sometimes life is hard, lonely, or frightening, but your Heavenly Father is always there. He sorrows when you suffer and rejoices when you do what is right. He wants to communicate with you as you sincerely pray to Him, and He stands ready to give you comfort, peace, and guidance in your life.
Jesus Christ taught that you must know the only true God to have eternal life ( John 17:3). As His child, you must know who He is and what He is like to find greater peace and joy, both in this life and in the life to come.

2. The Importance of Gospel Teaching in God's Plan - "Gospel teaching plays an essential role in Heavenly Father's plan" - here

Point out that teaching has always played an important role in God’s plan of redemption. Have class members read the scripture passages listed below. It may be helpful for you to explain the background of each passage (for example, you could explain that Doctrine and Covenants 138

contains an account of President Joseph F. Smith’s vision of the spirit world). Ask class members to share insights they gain from these passages about the role that teaching plays in Heavenly Father’s plan.

• a. Doctrine and Covenants 138:56. (We “received [our] first lessons in the world of spirits.”)
• b. Alma 12:27–32. (After Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, God helped them learn of the plan of redemption. He sent angels to teach them, and He answered their prayers. He gave them commandments after they had been taught the plan of redemption.)
• c. Moses 6:57–58. (The Lord commanded Adam and Eve to teach the gospel freely to their children.)

Summarize the discussion by reading Romans 10:13–15, 172 Nephi 2:8. Bear your testimony of the role of gospel teaching in Heavenly Father’s plan.

3. The Father of spirit @ BL301

From Hebrews (Hermeneia: Fortress Press, 1989), by Harold W. Attridge:

and

To the heavenly Father sons shall not simply show respect, but shall be "subject" (ὑποταγησόμεθα), as human beings regularly are to their superiors and as all created things will finally be to God.1 The rather solemn designation of God as "father of spirits" (τῷ πατρὶ τῶν πνευμάτων) is unusual and probably derives from traditional Jewish formulations that may have been used liturgically.2 These epithets were applied primarily to God's relationship to the angelic world,3 although references to God as father of human spirits are also found.4 In this context, with the opposition to "our flesh" in the previous clause, it is likely that our author understands the traditional formula in an anthropological sense.5

1For subjection in human relationships, cf. Col 3:18; Tit 2:5, 9; 1 Pet 2:13, 18; 3:1, 5; 5:5. For eschatological subjection, cf, 2:5, 8. Cf. also 1 Cor 15:27-28; Phil 3:21; Eph 1:22.
2For the God (LXX θεός) of spirits, cf. Num 16:22; 27:16.
3Cf. 1 Enoch 37.2-4; 38.4; 39.2, 7; 2 Macc. 3:24; 1QH 10:8; 1 QS 3:25.
4Cf. Dan 5:14; Rev 22:6; Herm. Vis. 3.12.3. Cf. also Philo Som. 2.273.
5On πνεῦμα as an anthropological category, cf. 4:12 and possibly 9:14. On God as the Father and "one source" of many "many sons," cf. 2:10-11.

4. Your reply.

1 Before conception:

Taken from The Family: A proclamation to the World.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life.

2. At conception

I don't know when the spirit actually enters the body, but I believe that a fetus has the potential to be a living human being, and is therefore considered human life. LDS doctrine states that mankind is innocent at birth--this would include at conception.

3. At birth

At birth, mankind is innocent and without sin. We are mortal and subject to temporal death. Children are not subject to temptation from satan until he or she reaches an age of accountability and is able to understand "things". Nor are children accountable for their choices until they begin to understand "things".

4. Before the cognizance of morality

I think this is what LDS would refer to as the age of accountability. LDS baptize their children at age 8, and that is about the age where we believe children naturally begin understand morality better. Before this time, children are innocent of sin.

I might add that we believe that what we inherit from Adam is mortality---the first death, where spirit and body separate. We don't accept the notion of inheriting a sin nature. We believe that man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. (Article of Faith #2) To make this possible, we believe that Jesus atoned for original guilt.

We are born INTO this fallen environment we call a probationary state where we are subject to temptation of the devil, and our own choices account for our individual natures whether for good or for evil. In other words, we don't bring a sin nature into the world when we are born, we are born into a sinful nature -or condition (like being born into a condition of squalor and poverty. Squalor is not our nature, it is the nature we were place into.)

5. After Baptism

Baptism is an essential ordinance of the Gospel. After baptism, our nature's don't change, but we now become accountable to follow gospel laws and principles. And repentance becomes necessary when those gospel laws and principles are broken. After baptism by immersion, then comes the baptism of the Holy Ghost, (or the gift of the Holy Ghost), which guides us and amplifies the still small voice of what we call our conscience. We are still held accountable for our choices, and we are not guaranteed eternal life. Eternal life requires moving toward obedience to gospel principles and laws, and repentance until obedience becomes a reality.

Christ's Atonement and His Grace makes both repentance and obedience possible.

6. In eternity ( what sort of nature will we have ?)

I assume you are talking about after the resurrection. (LDS believe in a time between death and the resurrection where significant things take place).

After the resurrection, we will inherit the glory that we are worthy of. There will be no more death, satan will be bound, we will face no temptation, we will live in God's presence, and become servants to God and take part in his great work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Sincerely,
HH

Originally posted by headheart

OtherCheek.

I spent about a few hours last night, and this morning carefully reading through 1-4 below, as well as carefully studying relative quotes and if that's all you get from those passages, then I think I will give it a miss, for now at least. I'm too tired to rehash my reply at the moment, but I will give it another go during the week.

1. God is your loving heavenly Father - here



2. The Importance of Gospel Teaching in God's Plan - "Gospel teaching plays an essential role in Heavenly Father's plan" - here



3. The Father of spirit @ BL301


4. Your reply.



Sincerely,
HH

HH, I guess I don't know you very well. Are you affirming that these Bible passages are consistent with LDS teachings, or at odds with them?

I am used to speaking with people who would argue that everything we LDS believe is at odds with the Bible, though I definitely see it as confirmed by the Bible.

I really don't know you or your approach to religion, so, I'm not sure what your perspective is. If you are affirming that these LDS teachings are consistent with the Bible, then you have caught me by surprise, as I usually expect people on this forum (who are not of my faith), to be argumentative and combative toward my faith. And I modify my replies to only include shallow interpretations of verses such as the ones you posted.

If you would like me to think on a deeper level as if I were speaking to a fellow LDS person in a gospel doctrine class, and respond accordingly, I would be happy to.

1. Hebrews 12:9 - Read : John Reece's comment

Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we (A)respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to (B)the Father of spirits, and (C)live?

As an LDS person, I take this "Father of spirits" passage as very literal. God IS our actual Heavenly Father, and we are created in his ACTUAL image. We have within us the potential to become like He is, as we are the same species of being. He is Exalted and Glorified, but we are his little children with the potential to be like our Father.

When we subject our will to his, and subject our will to the laws and principles of His Gospel, we CAN become Exalted and Glorified beings too.

2. Colossians 1:20
and through Him to (A)reconcile all things to Himself, having made (B)peace through (C)the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, (D)whether things on earth or things in heaven.

I'm not sure what is going through your mind on this, (I don't have ESP). But this to me is teaching that through the power of his Son and his atonement, God the Father reconciles the laws of justice and mercy satisfying both laws, and brings to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Maybe you could explain your thought process to me.

3. Colossians 2:19
and not holding fast to (A)the head, from whom (B)the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

I'm not sure I follow the significance of this verse as it pertains to the nature of man, except that we indeed increase and progress when we follow the gospel of Christ. This thought came to mind because I recall an LDS scripture which states:

D&C 50:24
24 That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.


4. Ephesians 1:19-23 (19b)
19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. (A)These are in accordance with the working of the (B)strength of His might

20which He brought about in Christ, when He (C)raised Him from the dead and (D)seated Him at His right hand in (E)the heavenly places,

21far above (F)all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every (G)name that is named, not only in (H)this age but also in the one to come.

22And He (I)put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as (J)head over all things to the church,

23which is His (K)body, the (L)fullness of Him who (M)fills (N)all in all.

This verse to me affirms Jesus overcame the world and all things, and sits on his throne above all things both now, and into the Millennium. He is qualified to be our judge. He is the head of his Church both now and into the Millennium.

I'm not sure I can pinpoint what you are getting at, so perhaps you can tell me what your thoughts are.

Thanks.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

HH, I guess I don't know you very well.

Are you affirming that these Bible passages are consistent with LDS teachings, or at odds with them?

Everything I have referred to above, I read through with a fine tooth-comb (metaphorically speaking) and has simply presented the passages, hoping that you will not just examine them as solitary sentences, but within the context of the whole Bible.
Obviously a book you are not unfamiliar with, though I suspect you are more familiar with the BoM as well as the POGP and the D&C (duh )

I am used to speaking with people who would argue that everything we LDS believe is at odds with the Bible, though I definitely see it as confirmed by the Bible.

Generally people that do that take ideas and match them against solitary passages and forget that the Bible is about meaning, not Mathematics or Rocket Science, so you will find me a lot more fluid in my responses. So please relax and let your thoughts flow. We are under the protection of the opening post instructios (though that does not mean we are exempt from sniper fire from radical unfriendlies, or suicide bomber types.)

I really don't know you or your approach to religion, so, I'm not sure what your perspective is. If you are affirming that these LDS teachings are consistent with the Bible, then you have caught me by surprise, as I usually expect people on this forum (who are not of my faith), to be argumentative and combative toward my faith. And I modify my replies to only include shallow interpretations of verses such as the ones you posted.

You will probably not have that sort of thing from me, for I am more interested in working from a point of discovery to more understanding, rather than beginning with a slamming door in the face routine.

If you would like me to think on a deeper level as if I were speaking to a fellow LDS person in a gospel doctrine class, and respond accordingly, I would be happy to.

All I ask for now is that we stick to the information that I have been through (above) plus the answers to your questions, and the passages I have included, or else we will probably end up losing sight of the objective and that is to explore the meaning of this 'essense' or 'nature of man', as it occurs in the already mentioned phases of our lives.

Thanks for you replies. I will now look at them in the light of my own thoughts which I have in greater detail and put up something later in the week.

I want to keep this mellow and informative, rather than contentious and debate orientated.

Don't sweat, I am not attempting to overturn your ideas, but rather to explore them and with my forthcoming reply you will get a chance to do that to mine. Of course I have as much apprehension as do you, for the extremists are always sitting half-cocked and ready to blast down anything that does not agree with their beliefs. What they fail to understand is that LDS doctrine is unique, and requires considerable learning to understand and respond to.
Try to remember that I spent some time engaging a LDS Bishop in the past (when I was a lot wilder) and have subsequently learned that there are wrong ways of doing this and then there is the friendly way. I chose the latter.

Sincerely,
HH