Who are the schismatics? - TheologyWeb Campus
TheologyWeb Campus TheologyWeb Campus


Hello and welcome to TheologyWeb – theology debate with a serious dose of fun! It has been our goal to create one of the best and most innovative discussion sites on the Net. Please visit our forums where we debate and discuss everything from religion, politics, lifestyle, pop culture, to who is the coolest member of the moderating team. Register now and join in the fun, its free, easy, and makes Dee Dee Warren happy.




*This site is best viewed in Mozilla Firefox with a minimum display resolution of 1024x768.

Reply

Who are the schismatics?
View First Unread
One Bad Pig is offline
One Bad Pig gotta hava java
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Federalist  
Posts: 61,924
Join Date: July 2nd, 2003
Spam: 186357 | Anti-Spam: 1377
Pearls: 260
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 09:08 PM
 
 
 
 
 
That's funny, because [Lutherans] consider [Roman Catholics] the schismatics.
I'd like to see your reasoning on this, Max.

 
  Valedictorian: top poster - Issue reason: is made of spam Dean: is mighty! - Issue reason: plays the same song every week Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: March 2005 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Maxentius is offline
Maxentius Arch Lutheran
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,911
Join Date: July 18th, 2003
Spam: 8 | Anti-Spam: 2155
Pearls: 673
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 09:17 PM
 
 
 
 
I'd like to see your reasoning on this, Max.
We consider ourselves the true inheritors of the Apostolic deposit of faith.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Infant faith? You betcha!

"Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God."
(Psa 22:9-10 ESV)
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Anoetos is offline
Anoetos Obsessive Specialist
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Religiopath  |  PaleoCon  
Posts: 1,365
Join Date: January 19th, 2004
Spam: 91 | Anti-Spam: 339
Pearls: 349
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 10:05 PM
 
Last edited by themuzicman : October 8th 2009 at 10:39 AM .  
 
 
Edited by a Moderator


Moderated By: themuzicman

This is a Christian only area

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.



 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
“To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven.“ - Chuang Tzu
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
George Blaisdell is offline
George Blaisdell ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Penitent  
Posts: 5,328
Join Date: February 13th, 2003
Spam: 46 | Anti-Spam: 5295
Pearls: 851
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 10:58 PM
 
In reply to this post by Anoetos
Last edited by themuzicman : October 8th 2009 at 10:40 AM .  
 
 
Edited by a Moderator



Arsenios

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
George Blaisdell is offline
George Blaisdell ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Penitent  
Posts: 5,328
Join Date: February 13th, 2003
Spam: 46 | Anti-Spam: 5295
Pearls: 851
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 11:00 PM
 
 
 
 
We consider ourselves the true inheritors of the Apostolic deposit of faith.
And we consider you schismatics from Mother Schmismata, Rome...
Even further from the Faith than Mother Rome, who has wandered far in Her prodigality...

Arsenios

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Maxentius is offline
Maxentius Arch Lutheran
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,911
Join Date: July 18th, 2003
Spam: 8 | Anti-Spam: 2155
Pearls: 673
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 11:11 PM
 
 
 
 
And we consider you schismatics from Mother Schmismata, Rome...
Even further from the Faith than Mother Rome, who has wandered far in Her prodigality...

Arsenios
First, a clarification. I do not mean to say that the Lutherans are the only Christian Church. That would be silly.

Second, you can consider us anything you would like to, it is a free country.

Third, this was in response to the typical wordplay and posturing here. My remarks to RCN were to show that his perspective on "the" Church is not the only one. By anathematizing the Gospel, Rome became schismatic.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Infant faith? You betcha!

"Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God."
(Psa 22:9-10 ESV)
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
George Blaisdell is offline
George Blaisdell ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Penitent  
Posts: 5,328
Join Date: February 13th, 2003
Spam: 46 | Anti-Spam: 5295
Pearls: 851
 
Old
  October 1st 2009 , 11:34 PM
 
 
 
 
First, a clarification. I do not mean to say that the Lutherans are the only Christian Church. That would be silly.

Second, you can consider us anything you would like to, it is a free country.

Third, this was in response to the typical wordplay and posturing here. My remarks to RCN were to show that his perspective on "the" Church is not the only one. By anathematizing the Gospel, Rome became schismatic.
I know, I know...

Forgive me!

Arsenios

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
One Bad Pig is offline
One Bad Pig gotta hava java
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Federalist  
Posts: 61,924
Join Date: July 2nd, 2003
Spam: 186357 | Anti-Spam: 1377
Pearls: 260
 
Old
  October 3rd 2009 , 01:22 PM
 
 
 
 
First, a clarification. I do not mean to say that the Lutherans are the only Christian Church. That would be silly.

Second, you can consider us anything you would like to, it is a free country.

Third, this was in response to the typical wordplay and posturing here. My remarks to RCN were to show that his perspective on "the" Church is not the only one. By anathematizing the Gospel, Rome became schismatic.
When (and how) did Rome anathematize the Gospel?

 
  Valedictorian: top poster - Issue reason: is made of spam Dean: is mighty! - Issue reason: plays the same song every week Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: March 2005 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Maxentius is offline
Maxentius Arch Lutheran
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,911
Join Date: July 18th, 2003
Spam: 8 | Anti-Spam: 2155
Pearls: 673
 
Old
  October 3rd 2009 , 05:21 PM
 
 
 
 
When (and how) did Rome anathematize the Gospel?
They did so at the Council of Tent.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Infant faith? You betcha!

"Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God."
(Psa 22:9-10 ESV)
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

The following tWebber says Amen to Maxentius for this useful Post:
furay is offline
furay Stat crux dum volvitur orbis
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Roman Catholic  |  ViveChristusRex  
Posts: 3,118
Join Date: August 28th, 2004
Spam: 951 | Anti-Spam: 398
Pearls: 240
 
Old
  October 3rd 2009 , 06:10 PM
 
 
 
 
They did so at the Council of Tent.
Under the Big Top?

 
  Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: November 2005 Alumnus    Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"I would submit that if we wanted a Pope, we would be under the real one"
- Metropolitan Jonah OCA

^ Ironic

Institute of Christ the KIng + Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter + The Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer + Society of Saint Pius X + Institute of the Good Shepherd + Franciscans of the Immaculate


 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

The following 4 tWebbers say Amen to furay for this useful Post:
One Bad Pig is offline
One Bad Pig gotta hava java
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Federalist  
Posts: 61,924
Join Date: July 2nd, 2003
Spam: 186357 | Anti-Spam: 1377
Pearls: 260
 
Old
  October 3rd 2009 , 06:21 PM
 
 
 
 
They did so at the Council of Tent.
How?

 
  Valedictorian: top poster - Issue reason: is made of spam Dean: is mighty! - Issue reason: plays the same song every week Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: March 2005 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Maxentius is offline
Maxentius Arch Lutheran
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,911
Join Date: July 18th, 2003
Spam: 8 | Anti-Spam: 2155
Pearls: 673
 
Old
  October 3rd 2009 , 07:35 PM
 
 
 
 
How?
Augsberg Confession

Article IV: Of Justification.

Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.

Article VI: Of New Obedience.

Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God's will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.


© source where applicable



http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgcon...n.php#article4

Notice that for the Lutherans, the New Obedience follows our justification through faith, by which God imputes for righteousness in his sight, as he did with Abraham. Our good works are not meritorious for us before God for our justification or receiving further graces. They are things which are necessary and commanded but unprofitable for justification.

Now compare Trent:

Council of Trent Session VI

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

...

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

...

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.


© source where applicable


http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

As should be clear, we are not justified by faith alone, that our sins are not forgiven us when we believe the Gospel promises, and our good works merit more grace for us. If one does not agree with these propositions, one comes under the Anathemas.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Infant faith? You betcha!

"Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God."
(Psa 22:9-10 ESV)
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
One Bad Pig is offline
One Bad Pig gotta hava java
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Federalist  
Posts: 61,924
Join Date: July 2nd, 2003
Spam: 186357 | Anti-Spam: 1377
Pearls: 260
 
Old
  October 6th 2009 , 12:04 AM
 
 
 
 
After reading the first part of what you linked to, I don't see any real contradiction in intent between the Augsburg Confession excerpt you posted and the first five canons from Trent you posted. The last two? I'm too tired to make head or tail of them at the moment. There are indubitably some canons there that do contradict the Augsburg Confession (XXIV, for example). AFAICS the RCC is wrong for advocating degrees of justification, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anathematizing a particular interpretation of justification thereby anathematizes the gospel.

 
  Valedictorian: top poster - Issue reason: is made of spam Dean: is mighty! - Issue reason: plays the same song every week Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: March 2005 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Maxentius is offline
Maxentius Arch Lutheran
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 1,911
Join Date: July 18th, 2003
Spam: 8 | Anti-Spam: 2155
Pearls: 673
 
Old
  October 6th 2009 , 12:40 PM
 
 
 
 
After reading the first part of what you linked to, I don't see any real contradiction in intent between the Augsburg Confession excerpt you posted and the first five canons from Trent you posted. The last two? I'm too tired to make head or tail of them at the moment. There are indubitably some canons there that do contradict the Augsburg Confession (XXIV, for example). AFAICS the RCC is wrong for advocating degrees of justification, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anathematizing a particular interpretation of justification thereby anathematizes the gospel.
The key word is merit. Merit underlies the whole of section 6. Merit is something we acquire by cooperating with grace. Merit is earned and it "merits" more grace, according to Trent, and it does not do so under any circumstances according to Augsburg. If one does not accept that merit earns more grace, one is anathematized. Its right there. Since that is not the Gospel handed down by the Apostles, while the true Gospel as outlined in Augsburg is, Lutherans are anathematized. In fact, that was the point of Trent, to anathematize certin features of the Reformation. (I am speaking in a "partisan" voice purposely).

I don't know why this is even controversial, to be honest.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Infant faith? You betcha!

"Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God."
(Psa 22:9-10 ESV)
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
One Bad Pig is offline
One Bad Pig gotta hava java
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Federalist  
Posts: 61,924
Join Date: July 2nd, 2003
Spam: 186357 | Anti-Spam: 1377
Pearls: 260
 
Old
  October 6th 2009 , 09:44 PM
 
 
 
 
I don't see it as any more wrong than Calvinism's irresistible grace, which misses the mark in the opposite direction. I'm guessing most people here will find that statement rather controversial, though.

 
  Valedictorian: top poster - Issue reason: is made of spam Dean: is mighty! - Issue reason: plays the same song every week Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: March 2005 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
George Blaisdell is offline
George Blaisdell ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Penitent  
Posts: 5,328
Join Date: February 13th, 2003
Spam: 46 | Anti-Spam: 5295
Pearls: 851
 
Old
  October 7th 2009 , 12:32 AM
 
 
 
 
The key word is merit. Merit underlies the whole of section 6. Merit is something we acquire by cooperating with grace. Merit is earned and it "merits" more grace, according to Trent, and it does not do so under any circumstances according to Augsburg. If one does not accept that merit earns more grace, one is anathematized. Its right there. Since that is not the Gospel handed down by the Apostles, while the true Gospel as outlined in Augsburg is, Lutherans are anathematized. In fact, that was the point of Trent, to anathematize certain features of the Reformation. (I am speaking in a "partisan" voice purposely).

I don't know why this is even controversial, to be honest.
So it is basically a revolt against Rome's merit system???

Lord have mercy!

I mean, it is silly to suppose that fallen man merits God's grace...
Yet to say that personal effort has nothing to do with salvation is equally silly...

Indeed, we are to struggle against our old man and turn from our old ways and run the race set out before us, and this all takes effort on our part... Christ Himself tells us we are to love the Lord our God with ALL OUR STRENGTH... [And not all of God's strength...]

The synergistic relationship between faith and works is clearly spelled out in James, where he shows us that works perfect faith... And yet the relationship between works and grace is a mystery, because NOTHING can EARN us GOD, and the saving Grace of God IS God, and nothing created can MERIT God... That is just silly, again... Yet we are rewarded based upon our willful choices, and if we are willing to do the will of God, we will ATTAIN unto the Grace of God... We will attract that Grace... Just as it is also true that if we choose to DO the works of SIN, we will repel what Grace we had...

But this strident proclamation of FAITH ALONE!!! is equally silly, because there is no faith without works, and works perfect faith [James]

Arsenios

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

« Previous Thread   |   Post New Thread   |   Next Thread »


 
Forum Jump  

Page generated in 0.66624 seconds with 14 queries