Originally posted by Maxentius

That's funny, because [Lutherans] consider [Roman Catholics] the schismatics.

I'd like to see your reasoning on this, Max.

Originally posted by One Bad Pig

I'd like to see your reasoning on this, Max.

We consider ourselves the true inheritors of the Apostolic deposit of faith.

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Arsenios

Originally posted by Maxentius

We consider ourselves the true inheritors of the Apostolic deposit of faith.

And we consider you schismatics from Mother Schmismata, Rome...
Even further from the Faith than Mother Rome, who has wandered far in Her prodigality...

Arsenios

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

And we consider you schismatics from Mother Schmismata, Rome...
Even further from the Faith than Mother Rome, who has wandered far in Her prodigality...

Arsenios

First, a clarification. I do not mean to say that the Lutherans are the only Christian Church. That would be silly.

Second, you can consider us anything you would like to, it is a free country.

Third, this was in response to the typical wordplay and posturing here. My remarks to RCN were to show that his perspective on "the" Church is not the only one. By anathematizing the Gospel, Rome became schismatic.

Originally posted by Maxentius

First, a clarification. I do not mean to say that the Lutherans are the only Christian Church. That would be silly.

Second, you can consider us anything you would like to, it is a free country.

Third, this was in response to the typical wordplay and posturing here. My remarks to RCN were to show that his perspective on "the" Church is not the only one. By anathematizing the Gospel, Rome became schismatic.

I know, I know...

Forgive me!

Arsenios

Originally posted by Maxentius

First, a clarification. I do not mean to say that the Lutherans are the only Christian Church. That would be silly.

Second, you can consider us anything you would like to, it is a free country.

Third, this was in response to the typical wordplay and posturing here. My remarks to RCN were to show that his perspective on "the" Church is not the only one. By anathematizing the Gospel, Rome became schismatic.

When (and how) did Rome anathematize the Gospel?

Originally posted by One Bad Pig

When (and how) did Rome anathematize the Gospel?

They did so at the Council of Tent.

Originally posted by Maxentius

They did so at the Council of Tent.

Under the Big Top?

Originally posted by Maxentius

They did so at the Council of Tent.

How?

Originally posted by One Bad Pig

How?

Augsberg Confession

Article IV: Of Justification.

Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.

Article VI: Of New Obedience.

Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God's will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

---

© source where applicable

http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgcon...n.php#article4

Notice that for the Lutherans, the New Obedience follows our justification through faith, by which God imputes for righteousness in his sight, as he did with Abraham. Our good works are not meritorious for us before God for our justification or receiving further graces. They are things which are necessary and commanded but unprofitable for justification.

Now compare Trent:

Council of Trent Session VI

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

...

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

...

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

---

© source where applicable

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

As should be clear, we are not justified by faith alone, that our sins are not forgiven us when we believe the Gospel promises, and our good works merit more grace for us. If one does not agree with these propositions, one comes under the Anathemas.

After reading the first part of what you linked to, I don't see any real contradiction in intent between the Augsburg Confession excerpt you posted and the first five canons from Trent you posted. The last two? I'm too tired to make head or tail of them at the moment. There are indubitably some canons there that do contradict the Augsburg Confession (XXIV, for example). AFAICS the RCC is wrong for advocating degrees of justification, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anathematizing a particular interpretation of justification thereby anathematizes the gospel.

Originally posted by One Bad Pig

After reading the first part of what you linked to, I don't see any real contradiction in intent between the Augsburg Confession excerpt you posted and the first five canons from Trent you posted. The last two? I'm too tired to make head or tail of them at the moment. There are indubitably some canons there that do contradict the Augsburg Confession (XXIV, for example). AFAICS the RCC is wrong for advocating degrees of justification, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anathematizing a particular interpretation of justification thereby anathematizes the gospel.

The key word is merit. Merit underlies the whole of section 6. Merit is something we acquire by cooperating with grace. Merit is earned and it "merits" more grace, according to Trent, and it does not do so under any circumstances according to Augsburg. If one does not accept that merit earns more grace, one is anathematized. Its right there. Since that is not the Gospel handed down by the Apostles, while the true Gospel as outlined in Augsburg is, Lutherans are anathematized. In fact, that was the point of Trent, to anathematize certin features of the Reformation. (I am speaking in a "partisan" voice purposely).

I don't know why this is even controversial, to be honest.

I don't see it as any more wrong than Calvinism's irresistible grace, which misses the mark in the opposite direction. I'm guessing most people here will find that statement rather controversial, though.

Originally posted by Maxentius

The key word is merit. Merit underlies the whole of section 6. Merit is something we acquire by cooperating with grace. Merit is earned and it "merits" more grace, according to Trent, and it does not do so under any circumstances according to Augsburg. If one does not accept that merit earns more grace, one is anathematized. Its right there. Since that is not the Gospel handed down by the Apostles, while the true Gospel as outlined in Augsburg is, Lutherans are anathematized. In fact, that was the point of Trent, to anathematize certain features of the Reformation. (I am speaking in a "partisan" voice purposely).

I don't know why this is even controversial, to be honest.

So it is basically a revolt against Rome's merit system???

Lord have mercy!

I mean, it is silly to suppose that fallen man merits God's grace...
Yet to say that personal effort has nothing to do with salvation is equally silly...

Indeed, we are to struggle against our old man and turn from our old ways and run the race set out before us, and this all takes effort on our part... Christ Himself tells us we are to love the Lord our God with ALL OUR STRENGTH... [And not all of God's strength...]

The synergistic relationship between faith and works is clearly spelled out in James, where he shows us that works perfect faith... And yet the relationship between works and grace is a mystery, because NOTHING can EARN us GOD, and the saving Grace of God IS God, and nothing created can MERIT God... That is just silly, again... Yet we are rewarded based upon our willful choices, and if we are willing to do the will of God, we will ATTAIN unto the Grace of God... We will attract that Grace... Just as it is also true that if we choose to DO the works of SIN, we will repel what Grace we had...

But this strident proclamation of FAITH ALONE!!! is equally silly, because there is no faith without works, and works perfect faith [James]

Arsenios