The east remains largely unintelligible, George being an example of that.

And before anyone thinks I am saying bad things about George, let me hasten to add that the unintelligible has an appeal to some people and even objectively, it's own value and worth,

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

To say that works are EVIDENCE of salvation is NOT TO SAY that works are UNTO SALVATION. And the Gospel of Christ tells us plainly, from the days of John the Baptist on down to the present day and hour, to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED... For the Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND... And the violent are taking it by force... These ALL describe WORKS that are UNTO salvation, and salvation is the union of man with God by God's Grace, where man partakes of the Divine Nature on earth...

Why do you say that those Scriptures describe "works unto salvation?" What does the antiquated preposition "unto" connote for you?

So that the DOING of works is UNTO SALVATION. It does not EARN salvation. It SEEKS it, attracting the Grace of God.

What does it mean for works to "attract" the grace of God?

Originally posted by RBerman

Why do you say that those Scriptures describe "works unto salvation?" What does the antiquated preposition "unto" connote for you?


What does it mean for works to "attract" the grace of God?

Discipleship in Christ is obedience to Christ.
This WORK does not earn you salvation...
God gives you salvation because of your obedience to Him...
God is faithful, and seeks your turning from sin and to Him...
He does not OWE to you the healing of your soul...

This is the meaning of attracting the Grace of God unto salvation of our souls...

Arsenios

Originally posted by Anoetos

The east remains largely unintelligible, George being an example of that.

And before anyone thinks I am saying bad things about George, let me hasten to add that the unintelligible has an appeal to some people and even objectively, it's own value and worth,

There is nothing unintelligible in what I have written...

Paul writes: "We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a purified conscience..."

Note he does not say we hold the logical system of the Faith...

You must hold BOTH sides of works and grace by Faith...

It is not hard to understand at all, unless you are locked in to western neo-scholastic rationalism...

Arsenios

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

The two poles must be clearly and unequivocally held at the same time.
1: On the one hand, we must do EVERYTHING in our power for the salvation of our souls.
2: On the other hand, there is NOTHING we can do that will save us...

Welcome to the Orthodox Christian approach to the Mystery of the Faith...

I don't have a problem with paradox. And if we must do everything in our power for the salvation of our souls, and there is nothing we can do because our works are rags, never the less these rags "attract" more grace, this seems more like a contradiction than a paradox.

And using "attract" while saying we do not "earn" seems arbitrary. Allow me to illustrate. Suppose I have a job which has a bonus structure. I could say my performance "attracts" the bonus, or that I "earned" a bonus.

Not surprising, for this is what the Reformation LOST in its rejection of the utter and total NEED of man for the works of the Faith unto the salvation of his soul.

How many times do we have to point out that works are necessary? Call it over coming sin, if you like, or sanctification, or a host of other terms. The fact is that if works are necessary we must do them. This is so elementary I am amazed you still behave as if we think works are an after thought.

Perhaps you are not speaking precisely, but you have a tendency to return to discredited tropes when dealing with the Reformation, or I daresay RCism. It is as if you don;t care what we believe, because what ever characterization you have heard about what we believe must be true no matter what we actually believe and practice.

The fact is, IF we approach Christ desiring to overcome sin in ourselves, then Christ will provide to us the Grace to do so.

Is this before or after we are baptized?

I also assume you believe this overcoming of sin is in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

To say that Christ REWARDS
is NOT TO SAY
that we EARN ANYTHING...

Why not? A reward is something given for an action performed, merit, etc. or to earn, acquire through merit, get in return for labor etc. I just don't see a gulf between the two. and if you argue for one, I will cry scholasticism.

It is the ultimate "deal" or bargain - You PAY nothing but rags to be thrown away anyway, and you receive the Kingdom of Heaven!

I am sorry, but this sounds like a straightforward transaction. I give my rags, and I get Christ. (In fact, this sounds a little like the nominalists [scholastics...BOOO!], who taught that God decided to accept a minimum of effort to reward the believer with justification because as King he could...) In Lutheran theology, God has grace on me and I receive Christ by faith and I am thus reborn. now, instead of being curved in on myself I am curved outward toward God and my neighbor. As you can see, there is nothing I offer to receive Christ.

Because you insist that they are "evidence of" and not "causally related to" the acquisition of God's Grace...

And again, this seems like a transaction to me. I do good, and I receive grace because I do good. That sounds like earning to me.

And are you denying good works are evidence of our relationship with God? If so, what do we make of "by their fruits you will know them..."? The thing is, no one (except you) has said good works are merely the outgrowth of faith.

I agree that "works unto salvation", despite the King Jamesy language, doesn't seem to occur in the NT. However let me suggest a meaning. We are justified by faith. But that's only part of salvation, something the Reformers were clear on. What's the whole picuture? We are justified because of God's grace, through faith in Christ's death and resurrection for us, with the goal of transforming us into people like him. So I would say that the purpose of justification is to act as the basis for the process of remaking us into the image of God. Salvation has been used several ways. Protestants tend to use it for taking people who are alienated from God and justifying them. However the whole picture is that salvation is God's whole process of fixing us.

I take the key passage for this to be a passage that I don't have time to find in Romans, where Paul says that in the past God overlooked sin, but now in Christ he is dealing with it. Justification is putting us into the covenant. It is entirely due to his grace, and nothing we've done. It is carried out by joining us to Christ, and in particular his death and resurrection. Our side of that union is faith, so justification is by faith. But its goal is to remake us from the inside, and thus fix our brokenness. So its purpose is to produce good works. Good works are certainly a sign of faith, but in some sense they're also its purpose. But because God's approach to fixing us is through union with Christ, good works can't be taken as a condition for justification, but they're at least part of its goal.

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

Discipleship in Christ is obedience to Christ.
This WORK does not earn you salvation...
God gives you salvation because of your obedience to Him...
God is faithful, and seeks your turning from sin and to Him...
He does not OWE to you the healing of your soul...

This is the meaning of attracting the Grace of God unto salvation of our souls...

"Obedience to Christ is a work which does not earn you salvation" is a true statement. However, "God gives you salvation because of your obedience to him" contradicts that true statement by making good works not only a condition of salvation, but a ground/precondition of salvation.

Originally posted by RBerman

"Obedience to Christ is a work which does not earn you salvation" is a true statement. However, "God gives you salvation because of your obedience to him" contradicts that true statement by making good works not only a condition of salvation, but a ground/precondition of salvation.

Anmd let us not forget the Orthodox prayer I cited earlier in this thread:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...6&postcount=34

"For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold, I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory."

In fact, I find nothing in this prayer to which I could raise even a minor objection. And on its face, it seems to contradict what George is saying.

Originally posted by RBerman

"Obedience to Christ is a work which does not earn you salvation" is a true statement.
However, "God gives you salvation because of your obedience to him" contradicts that true statement
by making good works not only a condition of salvation,
but a ground/precondition of salvation.

Perhaps it might help to understand the difference between the two CAUSES of salvation:

1st - The necessary BUT NOT sufficient cause = REPENTANCE
2nd - The necessary AND sufficient cause = GRACE

The Reformation drove the wedge of the SOLA's between these two NECESSARY CAUSES
And in the process threw away the Gospel of Christ.

All you need to do is LOOK at the FIRST WORD of John the Baptist, as he came forth:

"REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand..." Matthew 3:2

And the FIRST WORD of Christ after He came forth from the desert having overcome Satan:

Mat 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
"REPENT: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. "

And Peter at Pentecost, his first word to the people there:

"Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,
REPENT, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

REPENTANCE is the FIRST COMMANDMENT of John the Baptist, Christ and the Apostles...
REPENTANCE is a WORK...
REPENTANCE is a NECESSARY CAUSE of salvation...

It is NOT a sufficient cause... As Peter's words in Acts above make clear, one must then be baptized into Christ, for the remission of sins, and THEN comes the GIFT of the Holy Spirit...

I simply CANNOT make it ANY clearer than this...

I am frankly stunned that anyone who swallows Sola Scriptura can twist the plain meaning of Scripture as it is so plainly spelled out here... And in the process makes of Scripture a humanly constructed MODEL that contradicts Scripture...

You simply CANNOT SAY that works are ONLY a BY-PRODUCT of SAVING FAITH, that they ONLY ARE AN ACCOMPANIMENT... WORKS are part and parcel of WHAT FAITH IS... And it is only rationalism misapplied by western neo-scholastic thinking in rebellion against Rome that even CAN try to separate them into the two categories of Faith = Cause and Works = Effect...

Arsenios

Originally posted by Maxentius

And let us not forget the Orthodox prayer I cited earlier in this thread:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...6&postcount=34

"For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold, I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory."

In fact, I find nothing in this prayer to which I could raise even a minor objection. And on its face, it seems to contradict what George is saying.

IF you understand that prayer from WITHIN the context from which it emerged, which is the Orthodox Faith, it makes one sense... It makes quite another non-sense when it is understood in the context of faith from which it did NOT emerge, which is the Augsburg Confession...

Arsenios

Works are a part of salvation, but not of justification. Speaking of Scripture, to the man who does not work, but who trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is counted as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

IF you understand that prayer from WITHIN the context from which it emerged, which is the Orthodox Faith, it makes one sense... It makes quite another non-sense when it is understood in the context of faith from which it did NOT emerge, which is the Augsburg Confession...

Arsenios

The prayer seems a lot like the Augsburg Confession's claime regarding grace, faith, works and salvation. The context seems clear to me, anyway. Maybe the prayer is wrong, but as it stands you have given no reason for reading the prayer as anything but an affirmation of Augsburg beyond "context" which you have not supplied.

In other words, how does the prayer make sense if we are to do works "unto" salvation? It seems to me that the prayer itself asked God not to count our works, but our faith. That is certainly not what you have been saying here.

I am not saying that you cannot harmonize this prayer, just that absent a better explanation the prayer refutes your position.

Perhaps there is more than one Orthodox way to look at these things....

Originally posted by Maxentius

I don't have a problem with paradox. And if we must do everything in our power for the salvation of our souls, and there is nothing we can do because our works are rags, never the less these rags "attract" more grace, this seems more like a contradiction than a paradox.

Think NECESSARY, AND NOT SUFFICIENT... Without our rags, there is no reward, and with them, the reward, being GOD, is a free gift... The "throw-away" comes when we embrace sin...

And using "attract" while saying we do not "earn" seems arbitrary. Allow me to illustrate. Suppose I have a job which has a bonus structure. I could say my performance "attracts" the bonus, or that I "earned" a bonus.

The simple truth is that the DOING of repentance does not immediately get you the GRATIFICATION of Grace... THAT would make God your debtor, and thereby UNDER YOUR CONTROL... And God is NOT under your control. You cannot SAY 100 Hail Mary's and then RECEIVE the Grace in payment for them when you finish... WAGES are the reward that comes upon the completion of the work... At the end of the day, or week, or whatever is agreed on...

The REASON God's Grace is NOT wages, is not EARNED, is because God's Grace IS GOD, and NOTHING that is CREATED can EARN ITS CREATOR...

How many times do we have to point out that works are necessary? Call it over coming sin, if you like, or sanctification, or a host of other terms. The fact is that if works are necessary we must do them. This is so elementary I am amazed you still behave as if we think works are an after thought.

And how many times do I have to ask you "What is the ROLE of you so called 'necessary works'"... Are they unto salvation, or a result of it? And you consistently say, and then ignore that you have said it, that works are EVIDENCE OF, and not a CAUSE OF, salvation...

Is this before or after we are baptized?

Yes. Those without the law are a law unto themselves, and will be judged accordingly...

I also assume you believe this overcoming of sin is in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

Everything good is in co-operation with the Holy Spirit...

Why not? A reward is something given for an action performed, merit, etc. or to earn, acquire through merit, get in return for labor etc. I just don't see a gulf between the two. and if you argue for one, I will cry scholasticism.

Nothing created can EARN God...

I am sorry, but this sounds like a straightforward transaction. I give my rags, and I get Christ.

If that were true, then creation can self-deify, and it cannot, as the Fall of Adam has demonstrated... We can but make ourselves pitiful, and thereby seek the Grace of God... Like the Poor Publican, who could not even LOOK toward God... And could only beat himself with his fist on his breast in agonizing over his grievous sins... And he walked away from THAT act of repentance JUSTIFIED...

And the Pharisee did something else - He THANKED GOD for making him NOT LIKE the sinners, and proved it by citing his pious works of fasting and giving alms to the Temple... And he walked away UNJUSTIFIED...

Now Protestants like to cite this passage as proof of the futility of works, but what it really proves is the futility of UNREPENTANT works... Repentance is the FIRST work, you see, and it NEVER ENDS in this life on earth...

In Lutheran theology, God has grace on me and I receive Christ by faith and I am thus reborn. now, instead of being curved in on myself I am curved outward toward God and my neighbor. As you can see, there is nothing I offer to receive Christ.

So what did the Publican offer, and the Pharisee? And where in this scheme does your Lutheran offering of NOTHING TO CHRIST fit in???

If you do not OFFER CHRIST your repentance from your evil deeds, you will NOT RECEIVE CHRIST...

[quote]And again, this seems like a transaction to me. I do good, and I receive grace because I do good. That sounds like earning to me.[quote]

Was it Simon the Sorcerer who tried to purchase Christ's Grace from the Apostle? It doesn't come that way... Not by labors, and not by cash... It is a gife given by God to those who in Faith repent of their evil and turn toward Him... If YOU think it means you can purchase God with human created and fallen works, you are sorely mistaken, yet it is only by these Good Works of Faith that you will ATTAIN God's Grace... For the Faith is not MERE INTELLECTUAL ASSENT to precepts, but the DOING OF FAITH - eg Repentance, self denial, and on and on...

And are you denying good works are evidence of our relationship with God? If so, what do we make of "by their fruits you will know them..."? The thing is, no one (except you) has said good works are merely the outgrowth of faith.

You say it yourself when you insist that works are evidence of, and not ever the cause of, Faith... I am simply saying that works and Faith work in SYNERGY one with another, and that Faith engenders works, and that works perfect Faith, JUST AS SCRIPTURE SAYS THEY DO... Are you DENYING THAT WORKS PERFECT FAITH???

I mean, I thought you believed in Scripture! Do you NOT believe in James 2:22??? "By works was his faith perfected."

Does Sola Scripture mean ONLY SOME of Scripture that supports my human conclusions?


Arsenios

Originally posted by Maxentius

How does the prayer make sense if we are to do works "unto" salvation? It seems to me that the prayer itself asked God not to count our works, but our faith.

That prayer is a confession of lack of works, contrition for that lack, and a supplication unto God to overlook that lack of good works and to regard the fact that he BELIEVES in God, even though he has not DONE THE WORKS of what he believes, AF IF the belief IS the works... He is confessing to his own hippocracy, and begging God to IMPUTE works to his faith, and THEN it confesses that NO WORKS CAN EARN salvation, that it is by Faith, and that his faith is defective...

AND... He looks to be trying to throw a bone to Augsburg... He is certainly NOT addressing the INNER works of Faith in his denial of works, for this prayer itself is such a work... And this is why it is the WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES that Paul is referring to when he contrasts Faith and works...

Arsenios

Originally posted by RBerman

Works are a part of salvation, but not of justification. Speaking of Scripture, to the man who does not work, but who trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is counted as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

Paul is addressing the sons of Abraham regarding the Law of the Jews... And how it originated in faith... And the PRIMACY of Faith... He is NOT addressing REPENTANCE as a WORK...

Nowhere will you find Paul saying that God justifies the unrepentant...

The wicked are justified by Faith IF THEY ARE REPENTANT...

And repentance is a work...

Arsenios

Originally posted by George Blaisdell

Paul is addressing the sons of Abraham regarding the Law of the Jews... And how it originated in faith... And the PRIMACY of Faith... He is NOT addressing REPENTANCE as a WORK...

Nowhere will you find Paul saying that God justifies the unrepentant...

The wicked are justified by Faith IF THEY ARE REPENTANT...

And repentance is a work...

Arsenios

I agree with your first sentence, but not your 4th.

I don't think repentance is a work. I see justification by faith as primarily a statement that we are renovated from the inside out. Faith is the way we receive Christ, participating in the union with him. Take a look at Luther's definition, http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...ther-faith.txt. By that definition, faith is what changes us and gives us new birth. I believe repentance is at least part of that. Like faith, repentance is a big concept. Calvin sees it as the Christian life in summary, and I think there's justification for that. So if you look at the repentance as a way of life then it might go beyond what is associated with justification. But having faith in God and trusting him certainly requires no longer putting ourselves in the center, so there is at least the beginning of repentance there.

While this may be going beyond Paul, I tend to associate justification by faith with Jesus' teaching that good trees produce good fruit, so we start by renewing the heart. Works must come from our renewed heart and our relationship with Christ to mean anything. Repentance kind of crosses the boundary -- indeed it may be the thing that ties faith and works together. But I think Jesus would consider at least the general attitude of repentance (as distinguished from the ongoing work of repenting from every individual sin, and bringing ourselves into conformity with Christ) as part of the renewed heart.

I will say that we're starting to get into the kind of thing that I dislike, making precise distinctions between faith, trust, love, repentance, etc., things that clearly overlap a lot. Justification by faith opposes a kind of self-help mentality that is at the opposite end of the spectrum. So in the context in which Paul uses it, the distinction makes a lot of sense. However we can push things too far, and get into a kind of scholastic set of definitions that end up removing much of the life from both Paul's teachings and Jesus'.

{Come to think of it, I may not accept anything that Christians do as a work in the sense Paul means it when he contrasts faith and works. In that sense he's looking at works, first as actions that are in the NPP terms, Jewish identity markers, but more broadly I think actions viewed as our own accomplishments. Christ and Paul both call for faithful actions, but see them as obedience. I'm not sure I would call the things we do in obedience to Christ "works" in the sense that word is being used here. (The term is used in other contexts more neutrally.)