The Law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" is the first principle of "change".

Has the law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" always existed? Or was it first caused to exist?

From scripture we know that cause and effect exist in heaven and the earth. We also know that Abraham's bosom has these rules as well. Anyone who disagrees I suggest you read the scriptures.

So now the real question is was this relationship made or is it inherent in God and must be in everything He creates. Obviously I can't answer that but I can speculate using scripture as my guide.

God has made it very clear that He is not the creation. And by extension I have to say that heaven is not God as well. He exist separate from what He creates. But we see characteristics in God that are in His creation. Like our emotions. God has declared in no uncertain terms that He possesses some of our emotions. This by itself is a strong argument that the Godhead has cause and effect. If something in the creation can effect God's emotions then cause and effect exist in that unique space of God.

Just as we see an artist work as a reflection of the artist I think we can also see the creation as a reflection of God. Why else would God make the universe or heaven unless there was some kind of attachment to it. I find that God is involved in everything that happens every where. Some sadly feel that God is distant and uncaring. Some even deny that He exist at all. One of the big questions I have is why does God leave us to find Him by faith? By Him setting this stage the way He has, is it an indication of who He is? I think it is. There is way more to this story. But we only know what we are told.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

The Law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" is the first principle of "change".

Has the law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" always existed? Or was it first caused to exist?

Hi OtherCheek,

What 'franktalk' said.....


From this point on, you will be in the mind of a Musician, Poet and Artist / Writer of streams of consciousness....(be warned nothing is as it seems, even to me)

Butterfly Effectl.jpg

Thanks for inviting me to participate, but I fear that this type of discussing might a little too advanced because of my wayward youth, but here is the mixed muddle of my rather overactive imagination. Or, what Tassman calls.... ??? < yeah that...

I call the law of causality (or as per Law ) a UVEAP and certainly a law without which Logic, Science and even this conversation would be really difficult, though I manage to have great discussion with my dog and all my offspring, even the occassional musician or two. Well, I think that is how the liturgy goes ?

From a Biblical perspective this idea might have been extracted in seed form from Genesis ( history might est. it far earlier), but I favour the prophet Isaiah ( Isaiah 46 ) and the progressive revelation ( Revelation 1:8 - Revelation 21:6 and possibly Revelation 22:13 ) of this into something which is perhaps closer to popular "Butterfly Effect" or perhaps the complex arena of Advanced Mathematics (which I know as much about as a cow looking at and angel, or an ant sitting next to a ten lane highway trying to make sense of constant vibrations it has begun to mistake for the activity of the antfarm, or the empty stare of an infant at its reflection in a mirror....)

In mathematics, the Poincaré recurrence theorem states that certain systems will, after a sufficiently long time, return to a state very close to the initial state.

From: Wikipedia.

I am currently reading 'Causality' from Wikipedia and already my inner lobes are vibrating too much to continue. I shall ask my intelligent sons.

Sincerely,
HH

Hi HH,

Causation as it relates to first causes is an argument for God. For if I trace back causes in this universe I will eventually come to a point where the universe needs to come into existence. Now the popular big bang with everything came from nothing or cyclic universe just does not answer the question, how did it start. The science types are left with, it has always existed as their answer. This places the creation independent of having to be made. It is a cleaver argument but answers nothing and places the creation as our god in essence. For secular people this gives them comfort somehow. Actually by tying infinity to the universe they avoid the question. But we have this thing called entropy which is hard for them to get around. All of the forces we experience are from an unbalanced universe. But over time all of the stuff of the universe will spread out in some equal soup called heat death. Then something must cause the unbalanced state to come back or the universe stops. And of course there are theories that try and fix that problem as well. I could go over them but I think the point is clear. There is a valid argument in asking the question how did all of this stuff get here. We are left with two choices. Place infinity and some mechanism in the universe to make it cycle or place infinity in a force outside of the universe. This is the base level of the secular world view or the spiritual world view. And it is faith that allows man to leap to one or the other.

Since I believe in God I have taken the leap to a spiritual caused creation. So now causation rest in another world removed from this one. But lucky for us that God has chosen to have men write messages for us so that we could know Him. Now God has stated that He is not a liar, I take Him at his Word. This means we can view the scriptures and try and obtain relationships between God and His creation. It also always us to see some of the character of God so we might obtain some insight into the spirit world. For the purposes of this OP it is key that God has made us with free will and that free will affects God. What we do makes Him happy or sad. Now this means that God is not a robot and this means that we are not robots as well. Actions here change things in the Godhead. This means that causation has always existed since God has always existed. This means that causation did not have a start and is not an independent created part of the universe.

This brings up an interesting question. Does God change over time? The simple answer is yes since we have scripture which indicates changes. But we also have the statement by God saying He does not lie. This means that once "said" He will not change. This gives us comfort and assurance of His promises. Now some will say that allows God to paint Himself into a corner, but with an infinite God there are no corners. And of course infinite knowledge prevents that from happening as well.

This brings up an interesting question. Does God change over time? The simple answer is yes since we have scripture which indicates changes. But we also have the statement by God saying He does not lie. This means that once "said" He will not change. This gives us comfort and assurance of His promises. Now some will say that allows God to paint Himself into a corner, but with an infinite God there are no corners. And of course infinite knowledge prevents that from happening as well.

there are also verses that say "I change not says the lord" and similar things.

Originally posted by Metacrock

there are also verses that say "I change not says the lord" and similar things.

Thanks for joining in Metacrock. I appreciate your showing interest in this topic.

That may not mean that God is a static being (taken literally). It may mean that God is steady and sure as our source for justice, mercy, light and truth and good and can therefore be trusted not to be a whimsical, capricious being. That He always has been, and always will be that way.

Thanks.

Originally posted by franktalk

Hi HH,

Causation as it relates to first causes is an argument for God. For if I trace back causes in this universe I will eventually come to a point where the universe needs to come into existence. Now the popular big bang with everything came from nothing or cyclic universe just does not answer the question, how did it start. The science types are left with, it has always existed as their answer. This places the creation independent of having to be made. It is a cleaver argument but answers nothing and places the creation as our god in essence. For secular people this gives them comfort somehow. Actually by tying infinity to the universe they avoid the question. But we have this thing called entropy which is hard for them to get around. All of the forces we experience are from an unbalanced universe. But over time all of the stuff of the universe will spread out in some equal soup called heat death. Then something must cause the unbalanced state to come back or the universe stops. And of course there are theories that try and fix that problem as well. I could go over them but I think the point is clear. There is a valid argument in asking the question how did all of this stuff get here. We are left with two choices. Place infinity and some mechanism in the universe to make it cycle or place infinity in a force outside of the universe. This is the base level of the secular world view or the spiritual world view. And it is faith that allows man to leap to one or the other.

Since I believe in God I have taken the leap to a spiritual caused creation. So now causation rest in another world removed from this one. But lucky for us that God has chosen to have men write messages for us so that we could know Him. Now God has stated that He is not a liar, I take Him at his Word. This means we can view the scriptures and try and obtain relationships between God and His creation. It also always us to see some of the character of God so we might obtain some insight into the spirit world. For the purposes of this OP it is key that God has made us with free will and that free will affects God. What we do makes Him happy or sad. Now this means that God is not a robot and this means that we are not robots as well. Actions here change things in the Godhead. This means that causation has always existed since God has always existed. This means that causation did not have a start and is not an independent created part of the universe.

This brings up an interesting question. Does God change over time? The simple answer is yes since we have scripture which indicates changes. But we also have the statement by God saying He does not lie. This means that once "said" He will not change. This gives us comfort and assurance of His promises. Now some will say that allows God to paint Himself into a corner, but with an infinite God there are no corners. And of course infinite knowledge prevents that from happening as well.

Some great points you mention Franktalk. I will respond when I get more time.

Originally posted by franktalk

Hi HH,

Causation as it relates to first causes is an argument for God. For if I trace back causes in this universe I will eventually come to a point where the universe needs to come into existence. Now the popular big bang with everything came from nothing or cyclic universe just does not answer the question, how did it start.

I have a hard time swallowing the idea of something from nothing, personally. And that's kind of what the Big Bang espouses, and so I'm not much of a Big Banger (at least as the theory is held popularly).

Originally posted by franktalk

The science types are left with, it has always existed as their answer. This places the creation independent of having to be made. It is a clever argument but answers nothing and places the creation as our god in essence.

Why do you (or others) think the idea of an eternally existent universe must unavoidably place the creation (or the elements ) as god? That is what puzzles me.

Originally posted by franktalk

For secular people this gives them comfort somehow. Actually by tying infinity to the universe they avoid the question. But we have this thing called entropy which is hard for them to get around. All of the forces we experience are from an unbalanced universe. But over time all of the stuff of the universe will spread out in some equal soup called heat death.

I understand the problem of entropy. But if there is a Supreme Being that is a source for light and power that the elements recognize and obey, the elements don't necessarily need to follow the course of least resistance, but they have an intelligent designer which commands them and they obey. The elements obeyed Jesus when he spoke out to them "Peace, be still."

Originally posted by franktalk

Then something must cause the unbalanced state to come back or the universe stops. And of course there are theories that try and fix that problem as well. I could go over them but I think the point is clear. There is a valid argument in asking the question how did all of this stuff get here. We are left with two choices. Place infinity and some mechanism in the universe to make it cycle or place infinity in a force outside of the universe. This is the base level of the secular world view or the spiritual world view. And it is faith that allows man to leap to one or the other.

While I believe God is not at "home" so to speak, in our temporal dimension, neither do I believe he is at "home" in a perfect vacuum dimension outside all of space and all of time either.

Originally posted by franktalk

Since I believe in God I have taken the leap to a spiritual caused creation. So now causation rest in another world removed from this one. But lucky for us that God has chosen to have men write messages for us so that we could know Him. Now God has stated that He is not a liar, I take Him at his Word. This means we can view the scriptures and try and obtain relationships between God and His creation. It also always us to see some of the character of God so we might obtain some insight into the spirit world. For the purposes of this OP it is key that God has made us with free will and that free will affects God. What we do makes Him happy or sad. Now this means that God is not a robot and this means that we are not robots as well. Actions here change things in the Godhead. This means that causation has always existed since God has always existed. This means that causation did not have a start and is not an independent created part of the universe.

Logical, and I agree. Causation has always existed. And the law of Cause and Affect has always existed.

The reason I believe in an eternal universe is because I can't believe God's realm was/is the perfect vacuum where the passage of any type of time measurement is completely missing or non-existent. And that God somehow had a new thought suddenly to cause existence for everything else.

Originally posted by franktalk

This brings up an interesting question. Does God change over time? The simple answer is yes since we have scripture which indicates changes. But we also have the statement by God saying He does not lie. This means that once "said" He will not change. This gives us comfort and assurance of His promises. Now some will say that allows God to paint Himself into a corner, but with an infinite God there are no corners. And of course infinite knowledge prevents that from happening as well.

I agree. Gods righteousness and holiness does not change, but I do believe He is aware of the passage of time, and is able to sequence his own thoughts in light of the passage of time.

Thanks Franktalk.

I look forward to more thoughts from you and others.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

I have a hard time swallowing the idea of something from nothing, personally. And that's kind of what the Big Bang espouses, and so I'm not much of a Big Banger (at least as the theory is held popularly).

Read about the ZPE. That will make your head spin. Physics has discovered that the universe is way more magical than most people would believe. If we think of God space and everything comes from that, heaven, the universe, etc, then really nothing was created from nothing. We just don't have a clue as to what that space is.

Why do you (or others) think the idea of an eternally existent universe must unavoidably place the creation (or the elements ) as god? That is what puzzles me.

When someone declares that the universe existed forever they take away the need for it to have a beginning. That thing that rest in infinity is apart from the little parts like us. With out a need or cause then causation breaks down as an argument for a god. Since science is all about natural answers this is the best they can do. But this kind of thinking comes with a boat load of assumptions. As for why people believe that the universe is a god. That is actually easy, people have faith and must assign it to something, when all else is unacceptable to someone then what they stand on becomes the default.

I understand the problem of entropy. But if there is a Supreme Being that is a source for light and power that the elements recognize and obey, the elements don't necessarily need to follow the course of least resistance, but they have an intelligent designer which commands them and they obey. The elements obeyed Jesus when he spoke out to them "Peace, be still."

I think that every atom in the universe is being held together by the will of God.

While I believe God is not at "home" so to speak, in our temporal dimension, neither do I believe he is at "home" in a perfect vacuum dimension outside all of space and all of time either.

I believe that God space is way more complex than what we see around us. I have studied the nature of reality for years and now feel we are in a simulation. A very good one.

Logical, and I agree. Causation has always existed. And the law of Cause and Affect has always existed.

I think so

The reason I believe in an eternal universe is because I can't believe God's realm was/is the perfect vacuum where the passage of any type of time measurement is completely missing or non-existent. And that God somehow had a new thought suddenly to cause existence for everything else.

You appear stuck on dimensionality. The real power comes from spirit. I have not seen any reason to believe it has dimensionality.

I agree. Gods righteousness and holiness does not change, but I do believe He is aware of the passage of time, and is able to sequence his own thoughts in light of the passage of time.

Time does pass on heaven and earth, that we know. But time in our universe is tied to space. So our time is part of the universe. But that does not mean that time can only be found here. But since time is a created thing for us then time (ours) is not a limitation for God. He can of course past in any direction through time. Now as for God space, it is hard for me to imagine an existence with out time but who knows.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

The Law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" is the first principle of "change".

Has the law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" always existed? Or was it first caused to exist?

Cause and Effect is not the first principle of change. It is the first principle of creation. Creator (Cause)...Created (Effect). For example, the Father is the Cause of the Son. And contrary to what franktalk says, the Creator does not exist apart from creation. They are "one". And what the Creator creates is LIKE THE CREATOR..."like from like"...true Go(o)d from true Go(o)d.

A world of time and mass is a concept which REVERSES the order of cause and effect. It enables, magically, the Effect (Creation, Son) to be it's own Cause (Father). A world of time and mass arises out of the chaos of such a reversal. The net effect is that "man" is really the maker of the "god" that makes him. Yes, that is reverse of what you would assume. Man's maker is made by man. This is how the "Son" has reversed cause and effect to become his own "father". Jesus reverses this when he advises us to "call no man father". Neither should we call man's maker "father". Those who traced their geneology back through man to man's maker were called sons of "the devil".

In other words, "the world" of time and mass is what happens when the Son (Effect) imagines he can be his own father (Cause). The result is a massive self-deception in which power is squandered and "lost". When Jesus put cause and effect back in proper order (in his mind), he found his power.

In a world where cause and effect are reversed, it appears that things just happen to us, with or without our consent. But in fact, consent is hidden, and whatever happens to us is what we've asked for, secretly, at buried levels of mind. Things just don't happen. They happen JUST.

To summerize, what we fondly call "the universe" (as if it is all that exists) is really the REVERSE of the World of God, competing with it for the title "reality".

Originally posted by UrbanMonk

"reality".

Is this another chapter in the book of PND ?

Originally posted by headheart

Is this another chapter in the book of PND ?

Don't know what you mean "PND". Reality = Christ.

Urban Monk

How exactly you first comment, and this mysterious expression "Reality = Christ" relates to the origin or creation of the presupposed truth value of the axiomatic principle in question, namely "The Law of Causality" or "every effect has an antecedant cause" is a mystery in itself and I suspect has something to do with your fascination with PND ( Pure Non Duality )

Please do not answer this, for I have already had my quota of blood for the day.

HH.

Originally posted by headheart

Urban Monk

How exactly you first comment, and this mysterious expression "Reality = Christ" relates to the origin or creation of the presupposed truth value of the axiomatic principle in question, namely "The Law of Causality" or "every effect has an antecedant cause" is a mystery in itself and I suspect has something to do with your fascination with PND ( Pure Non Duality )

Please do not answer this, for I have already had my quota of blood for the day.

HH.

Christ is a Caused cause. Christ is able to cause, as Christ has been Caused. The Cause of Christ is sometimes called "Father" and other times called "Creator". Sometimes the Cause of Christ is called "Source", or just plain Cause. Christ is reality, like Christ's Cause. Like it's Cause, Christ is able to cause reality. In this way, Christ is also Cause, or, Co-Cause. Whatever Go(o)d causes, it is caused together with all of what Go(o)d is.

What is not caused together with all of what Go(o)d is, is not truly caused. What we call "the world" of time and mass is not truly caused, being a PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of Christ. An interpretation is not a creation. It's a way of looking at what IS...Christ. So, it's a PERCEPTION.

Perception has it's own body of law. The law that regulates perception is not the Law of Go(o)d. Rather, perception TWISTS the Law of Go(o)d. "Twisted" and "wicked" are synonymous. Perception allows the perciever to DISTORT REALITY. If Christ is reality, then perception is a way of making Christ look "wicked".

Christ is the "Law" of Go(o)d. Perception TWISTS the Law of Go(o)d. So, once again, perception DISTORTS CHRIST. The law of perception enables all that can be imagined to seem REAL to the perciever. If Christ is reality, then perception enables the perceiver to SUBSTITUTE HIS OWN REALITY FOR THE REALITY OF CHRIST. In other words, the perceiver makes ANOTHER CHRIST and calls it "REALITY".

The law of perception enables the perciever to CAUSE HIS OWN "REALITY"...which is real only to the perceiver. Perception enables multiple percievers to CAUSE THEIR OWN "REALITY"....each reality a little different from every other reality.

Christ is a Caused cause. So, Christ DOES NOT CAUSE CHRIST'S OWN REALITY. That is caused by "Our Father". Perception is a body of "law" that enables Christ to BE CHRIST'S OWN CAUSE. That is, perception enables CHRIST to make ANOTHER REALITY NOT CHRIST. IF Christ is CREATION, then perception enables Christ to RE-CREATE SELF. Perception, as such, is for "recreation"....just for F.Un. F.Un. is an acronym for UNCONSIOUS FANTASY.

In order to build ANOTHER SELF using the "law" of perception, Christ must somehow render Christ UNCONSCIOUS. Christ is AWAKE (AWARE). SLEEP is a concept that renders Christ unconscious, or, UNAWARE. In order to be both aware and unaware, Christ must SPLIT THE MIND OF CHRIST. This yields a kind of DUAL PURPOSE. The purpose of awareness is to BE CHRIST. The purpose of unawareness is to NOT BE CHRIST. This is the fundamental question..."to be or not to be" (Christ). When the mind of Christ attempts to BE BOTH it MULTITASKS. Multitasking leads to CONFLICT because the fundamental question poses A CONFLICT OF INTERESTS.

If the mind of Christ is split, then one side of the mind is UNAWARE and CONFLICTED, while the other side is AWARE and AT PEACE. In order for the unaware side of the mind to remain unaware and conflicted, it must BLOCK THE PEACE OF AWARENESS. This is accomplished through CONFUSION. Confusion, then, becomes the basis of ANOTHER CHRIST/REALITY. Whatever supports confusion supports what is NOT CHRIST. In fact, what supports what is not Christ supports what is essentially ANTI CHRIST.

In the side of Christ's mind that is anti-Christ, CONFUSION WILL BE MOST POPULAR. What supports what is anti-Christ supports what is most confusing, and SHUNS CLARITY. If confusion is the same as DARKNESS, then clarity is the same as LIGHT. What loves the DARKNESS, hates (or otherwise rejects) the LIGHT.

HOUSE or TEMPLE is a metaphor for MIND. When discussing a SPLIT MIND we might say something like, "A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF". Or, we might talk about what DESTROYS THE TEMPLE in the same way that schizophrenia DESTROYS THE MIND.

If the mind is SPLIT, then it could be argued that one side of Christ's mind remains WHOLE, while the other side is DIVIDED. Or, it could be argued that one side is HOLY, while the other side is UN-HOLY. Or, it could be argued that one side is PERFECTLY PRISTINE, while the other side is PERFECTLY DESTROYED. Or, it could be argued that one side is ALIVE, while the other side is DEAD. Or, it could be argued that one side is STRONG, while the other side is WEAK. Or, it could be argued that one side is SPIRIT, while the other side is MASS (material, flesh, form). Or, it could be argued that one side is TRUE, and the other side is FALSE.

SALVATION, then, depends on the STRONG HELPING THE WEAK....the ALIVE helping the DEAD...the HOLY helping the UN-HOLY....the SPIRIT helping the FLESH...the PRISTINE helping the DESTROYED...the WHOLE helping the DIVIDED...the TRUE helping the FALSE....the PRINCE OF PEACE helping those AT WAR.

As such, SALVATION IS FOR THE MIND OF CHRIST. IT IS SAVED BY PEACE. PEACE COMES AS THIS CONFLICT OF MIND IS RESOLVED. RESOLUTION COMES WITH UNDERSTANDING AND DECISION. DECISION DECIDES A CHOICE TO DEVOTE ALLEGIENCE TO WHAT IS TRUE. THOSE WHO HAVE CHOSEN THE SIDE OF TRUTH ARE THE "CHOSEN ONES". THESE ARE THE "ELECT", HAVING DECIDED (ELECTED) TO SIDE WITH THE TRUTH.

Originally posted by OtherCheek

The Law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" is the first principle of "change".

Has the law (or principle) of "Cause and Effect" always existed? Or was it first caused to exist?

Based on the present state of our knowledge of sciences, particularly cosmology, physics and math, our physical existence is likely eternal and infinite, thus the chain of cause and effect you speak of has likely always existed. This is a likely conclusion, but not conclusive, because the actual 'truth' of the matter will not likely be known, and of course our physical existence may be ultimately finite and temporal.

Vampire_by_Emotay.jpg

Perhaps someone else their blood shall donate
For I am satisfied having engorged myself upon the neck of sweet Nancy.

Goodnight,
HH