Why are you guys arguing over sola fide and acting like that is orthodox Christian theology? I'm obviously not Mormon, you guys know me pretty well I think, but one poster posted predestination (I presume in a Calvinist sense) and sola fide as "orthodox Christian theology". wat.

Originally posted by Kabane52

Why are you guys arguing over sola fide and acting like that is orthodox Christian theology? I'm obviously not Mormon, you guys know me pretty well I think, but one poster posted predestination (I presume in a Calvinist sense) and sola fide as "orthodox Christian theology". wat.

Sola fide IS within the realm of orthodox ( in the sense of correct doctrine ) christian theology.

Can we not receive salvation ( in your estimation ) if we believe in sola fide ?

Originally posted by JAYMZ

Sola fide IS within the realm of orthodox ( in the sense of correct doctrine ) christian theology.

No, it isn't. It is a novel doctrine formulated a few hundred years ago. It's like if someone today came up with a brand new doctrine. It was not taught by the Church for over a thousand years.

Can we not receive salvation ( in your estimation ) if we believe in sola fide ?

I believe in extra ecclesiam nulla salus, but I cannot claim to know how many Protestants that God has mystically united to His Church. As scripture says, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Originally posted by Kabane52

No, it isn't. It is a novel doctrine formulated a few hundred years ago. It's like if someone today came up with a brand new doctrine. It was not taught by the Church for over a thousand years.

I believe in extra ecclesiam nulla salus, but I cannot claim to know how many Protestants that God has mystically united to His Church. As scripture says, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

By the grace of God through faith in the finished work of Christ; works to follow. Works shows that we have true saving faith.

Paul wrote way before the church fathers.

Originally posted by JAYMZ

By the grace of God through faith in the finished work of Christ; works to follow. Works shows that we have true saving faith.

Yes I'm aware that is the Protestant doctrine.

Paul wrote way before the church fathers.

I'm aware of that, but the apostles left successors on Earth, this is attested very early. You would have to believe that the article on which the church stands or falls was lost until Martin Luther. Do you believe that? Or is it possible that Luther misread Paul? Historically, orthodoxy has been determined by whether your interpretation of scripture conforms back to the traditional reading of scripture. Sola fide does not. New Perspective theology, incidentally, does.

Originally posted by Kabane52

Yes I'm aware that is the Protestant doctrine.

I'm aware of that, but the apostles left successors on Earth, this is attested very early. You would have to believe that the article on which the church stands or falls was lost until Martin Luther. Do you believe that? Or is it possible that Luther misread Paul? Historically, orthodoxy has been determined by whether your interpretation of scripture conforms back to the traditional reading of scripture. Sola fide does not. New Perspective theology, incidentally, does.

Could it be that some errors might of worked there way into the church after the Apostolic age ?

It must not be that cut or dry, otherwise you and Rome wouldnt have split.

Originally posted by JAYMZ

Could it be that some errors might of worked there way into the church after the Apostolic age ?

No, Christ is always with His Church so the Church as a whole will not teach a heretical doctrine, especially on something as serious as salvation. We have a record of writings straight down from Clement to Seraphim Rose. We know what the doctrine was. You would have to allege that the Church immediately fell into heresy right after the death of the apostles.

It must not be that cut or dry, otherwise you and Rome wouldnt have split.

Rome and the East divided because of the papacy and the filioque. We know for a fact that Rome accused us of heresy because we "removed" the filioque. We know they are in error, and that the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed did not contain "and the Son" and that this heresy was first added to the creed at a local synod in Spain. The papacy is a tougher issue, but the early patristic teaching is that the fullness of the church exists in each diocese. Such a model is incompatible with the later Western view of the Bishop of Rome having universal jurisdiction, because it makes the diocese only a part of the whole church (because each diocese does not have an individual pope) instead of possessing the fullness of the Church itself.

Originally posted by Kabane52

Yes I'm aware that is the Protestant doctrine.

.

and that doctrine seems to line up with what paul writes.
Ephesians 2:8-10. It is the gift of god, so no man can boast about what they did to earn eternal life.

Oops, the thread is off track.

Originally posted by JAYMZ

and that doctrine seems to line up with what paul writes.
Ephesians 2:8-10. It is the gift of god, so no man can boast about what they did to earn eternal life.

Oops, the thread is off track.

The focus of that passage is not on the faith, but the grace. For by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that (salvation) not of yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. The works are not in contrast to faith, but to grace. Paul is condemning works apart from grace, but then praises works of grace in verse ten. Was the Church in apostasy for most of its life?

Originally posted by Kabane52

The focus of that passage is not on the faith, but the grace. For by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that (salvation) not of yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. The works are not in contrast to faith, but to grace. Paul is condemning works apart from grace, but then praises works of grace in verse ten. Was the Church in apostasy for most of its life?

Saved through faith. Faith through your deeds or faith through Christ ? I say Christ.

Since I believe it comes down to a semantics issue I do not throw the word " apostasy " around very loosely.

But so goes the RC / EO vs protestant debate.

Originally posted by JAYMZ

Saved through faith. Faith through your deeds or faith through Christ ? I say Christ.

HUH? Faith is a sign of the covenant. We are continually regenerated by being faithful to God, which includes the good works in verse ten, but not the works apart from grace in verse nine. We are admitted into the covenant (usually) through baptism and our continuing faith is the sign that we remain in the Covenant, while we faithfully partake of the Holy Eucharist, confess our sins, etc.

Since I believe it comes down to a semantics issue I do not throw the word " apostasy " around very loosely.

It's not really semantic at all. Is salvation imputed righteousness, or is it a process of regeneration?

How was the thief on the cross next to Christ saved ?

If it was faith + works where was his works ?

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Rogue, it's Sola Fide Discussion, not sola scriptura.

I'll ask for a title change since I don't know how to.

Is not belief an act? Can a person brag about the greatness of their faith?