Here I will argue that God does not exist based on this proof:

(1) If there is a God, he is perfectly loving.
(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.
(3) [But] reasonable nonbelief occurs.
(4) [Thus, from (2) & (3)] no perfectly loving God exists.
(5) [Hence, from (1) & (4)] there is no God.

There's not much to do here for me, other than say one doesn't agree with the assumptions in the first few lines.

Other than that...rock on...

02-26-2003 @ 05:02 PM
Calvinist:
(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

The fault is in this assertion here.

If a perfectly loving God exists, He would have provided enough evidence of His existence so that all would be without "excuse" (Romans 1) IF they denied His existence.

Therefore, nonbelief is UNreasonable (i.e., the argument fails)

2. If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

I don't think that this premiss is true. There may very well be reasonable nonbelief even if a perfectly loving God exists.

Perhaps it could be argued that in every person's life, there must be a point at which the reasonable course of action is to become a believer and leave the nonbelief. But having reasonable nonbelief at some point of one's life is not something that God absolutely could not allow.

There also is the problem that we have very little basis to claim to know, whether or not nonbelief is reasonable in certain circumstances.

How would the fallenness of man relate to this?

What about God's foreknowledge? If God knows that some person would not become a believer even if He would make it clear to this person that nonbelief is not reasonable, is there anything wrong in God's not making this clear to him?

Hey, Calvinist! Would you be interested to have a formal debate on this subject, though I realize that you don't actually believe in the conclusion of this argument. Such a "mock" debate could be pretty fun nevertheless.

02-26-2003 @ 09:51 PM
J. J. Ramsey:

(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

The fault is in this assertion here.

How is this a fault in your estimation?

Does God have great love for humanity?

Does God strongly desire that humanity love him?

02-27-2003 @ 09:21 AM
Pate:

Hey, Calvinist! Would you be interested to have a formal debate on this subject, though I realize that you don't actually believe in the conclusion of this argument. Such a "mock" debate could be pretty fun nevertheless.

Sure. But let me deal with this argument from nonbelief for a little bit here and then we will give it a shot.

02-26-2003 @ 11:16 PM
TheFiveSolas:

If a perfectly loving God exists, He would have provided enough evidence of His existence so that all would be without "excuse" (Romans 1) IF they denied His existence.

Therefore, nonbelief is UNreasonable (i.e., the argument fails)

Are you claiming that reasonable nonbelief does not exist?

There is also a problem with our concept of "perfectly loving." What does that mean exactly. It would be fair to say that we may be replacing the divine concept of what perfectly loving is with our own, fallen one.

02-27-2003 @ 10:29 AM
Calvinist:

J. J. Ramsey:

(2) If a perfectly loving God exists, reasonable nonbelief does not occur.

The fault is in this assertion here.

How is this a fault in your estimation?

The basic problem is it assumes that God would not have some humanly unknowable reasons for allowing reasonable nonbelief.

02-27-2003 @ 09:17 AM
Pate:
I don't think that this premiss is true. There may very well be reasonable nonbelief even if a perfectly loving God exists.

True, but God is further defined as one who:

1) perfectly loves all of mankind
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(This being the definitive Christian Theist proof of God's perfect love.)

AND

2) desires (commands actually implying desire) that all men love him and should not perish.

Matthew 22
37Jesus said to him, ""You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'[1] 38This is the first and great commandment.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[3:9 NU-Text reads [you.] ] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Perhaps it could be argued that in every person's life, there must be a point at which the reasonable course of action is to become a believer and leave the nonbelief. But having reasonable nonbelief at some point of one's life is not something that God absolutely could not allow.

If reasonable nonbelief is possible then man cannot be culpable for nonbelief. And yet the Bible threatens the "unbeliever" with eternal consequences. Therefore, God is not perfectly loving; therefore, God( at least as you have defined him) does not exist.

There also is the problem that we have very little basis to claim to know, whether or not nonbelief is reasonable in certain circumstances.

I don't believe in God based on what I observe. I make a decision for nonbelief based on reasonable evidence. Therefore, my nonbelief is reasonable given the circumstances of God's obvious silence and hidden ness.

How would the fallenness of man relate to this?

Good question. But its a rabbit I don't care to chase.

What about God's foreknowledge? If God knows that some person would not become a believer even if He would make it clear to this person that nonbelief is not reasonable, is there anything wrong in God's not making this clear to him?

A "perfectly loving" God would. But there is no such God since it is possible to die in nonbelief.

02-27-2003 @ 09:45 AM
Pilgrim:

There is also a problem with our concept of "perfectly loving." What does that mean exactly. It would be fair to say that we may be replacing the divine concept of what perfectly loving is with our own, fallen one.

Would it be fair to assume that God is perfectly loving "more" than human persons can reasonably define "perfectly loving"?

God = perfectly loving + ??

02-27-2003 @ 09:45 AM
J. J. Ramsey:



How is this a fault in your estimation?

The basic problem is it assumes that God would not have some humanly unknowable reasons for allowing reasonable nonbelief.

Why would a perfectly loving God who...

...is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance...

...allow some people to die in nonbelief and go to Hell?

It's a contradcition.

If men are rational creatures, and it is reasonable for men to believe in God, and unreasonable not to, then why don't people? Like me, for instance.

02-27-2003 @ 10:52 AM
Calvinist:



Why would a perfectly loving God who...

...is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance...

...allow some people to die in nonbelief and go to Hell?

It's a contradcition.

Only if you are a strickt inerrantist.