I am now going to offer proof that Dispensationalism and Open Theism cannot logically be held together. Here is Right Idea's explanation of both positions:
Open-View -- a.k.a. an Open Theist. Can be dispensational or covenental, although most OVers are dispy. The Open View holds that God is omniscient, but because we have free will (and by God's choice), the future doesn't exist to be known, and therefore God only knows some of the future, not all of it. God knows that part of the future that He has definitely predetermined (as He did with the crucifixion and still foreknows regarding the future Tribulation). But the vast majority of the future, while extremely predictable for God, cannot be known for certain. A common false accusation against the Open View is that it limits God's omniscience, but this is absolutely untrue. God cannot know things that aren't true or don't exist. For example, God cannot know that there is a man named Bob Whippersnapper in the town of New York, Colorado. Because there is no such man and no such town. Does this limit His omniscience? Of course not; that would be silly. Likewise, God cannot know with 100% certainty (except for the aforementioned exceptions) the future, which doesn't exist to be known.

Dispensationalist -- A Christian is either Covenental or Dispensational. There is no third option. Covenental theologians believe the Body of Christ today receives all of the promises God made to Israel, and is "spiritual Israel." They believe either that We have been adopted spiritually into Israel, or we have totally and permanently replaced Israel, and God will never work with the Jews again. We dispensationalists, on the other hand, believe the Body of Christ is different from historical, spiritual, corporate Israel, that we don't receive all the promises and gifts that came as a part of Israel's covenant with God, etc. Most dispensationalists are Acts 2 Dispies, who believe there was no difference between Paul's gospel and Jesus's (and the Twelve's gospel, and that the Body of Christ began at Pentacost.

So let me summarize in backwards order:

Dispensationalism:
-There is a strong dichotomy between Israel and the Body of Christ.
-The body of Christ is not spiritual Israel.
-Thus Israel means physical Israel, not the body of Christ.

Open Theism:
-God does not know with certainty the future actions of his creatures.
-His creatures have libertarian free will to either accept or reject his offer of the gospel (as well as libertarian free will in every area of life).

OK, here is why these two cannot be logically held at the same time:

Romans 11:25,26--"For I do not desire, brethre, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved..."

So, dispensationally, Israel here cannot refer to the body of Christ, but must refer to national, physical, ethnic Israel. Since salvation, according to Open Theism, is accomplished when a libertarian free creature believes on the gospel, and all Israel will be saved, then each member of national Israel (or at least the mass nation depending on viewpoint) must, by their own libertarian free will, choose to accept the gospel and be saved. The problem is that God cannot know the future. God cannot know who will be saved. God cannot know the future actions of his libertarian free creatures with certainty. The Holy Spirit could not have inspired Paul to write these words if Open Theism is correct, for the Holy Spirit did not know which creatures would accept the gospel! Dispensationalism and Open Theism cannot logically both be held at the same time. Either Dispensationalism must be given up, Open Theism must be given up, or both Dispensationalism and Open Theism must be given up. You cannot hold to both. It is illogical.


Joel

02-26-2003 @ 10:51 AM
Theolog:

As I thought “dispensation” is not in the Bible. Just when and how did “dispensational theology” start?

I always thought that the Bible taught only one gospel are you saying that there are more than one gospel?

Just as I thought. You let your presuppositions rule the way you think, so that you make yourself close-minded, actually going out of your way to avoid facts.

Theolog, did you go find perhaps the one translation of the Bible that doesn't use the word "dispensation?" (The NASB.)

I looked in six translations, including the three listed below, and found "dispensation" in all six.



DARBY

Colossians 1:25
of which *I* became minister, according to the dispensation of God which [is] given me towards you to complete the word of God,

1 Timothy 1:4
nor to turn their minds to fables and interminable genealogies, which bring questionings rather than [further] God's dispensation, which [is] in faith.



KJV

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;



NKJV

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him.

Ephesians 3:2-9
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;


The word "dispensation" isn't in the Bible? I beg to differ, my friend. Next?

Joel, you have one fatal flaw in your logic. Open Theism recognizes that not all prophecies from God come true, and that some prophecies in the Bible never came true. (Such as the destruction of Ninevah and other examples.) Just as we can see in Jeremiah 18, all prophecies from God (most especially concerning nations) are inherently conditional upon the free will actions of those nations and the individuals therein. Therefore, the prophecy you cited regarding Israel is also conditional. It may very well not come to pass. God believes it will. But that's not a 100% guarantee, any more than it was set in stone that Ninevah would be surely destroyed 40 days after the prophecy given by Jonah.

Can't wait to see how geebob or Yx respond to this.

Joel, you have one fatal flaw in your logic. Open Theism recognizes that not all prophecies from God come true, and that some prophecies in the Bible never came true. (Such as the destruction of Ninevah and other examples.) Just as we can see in Jeremiah 18, all prophecies from God (most especially concerning nations) are inherently conditional upon the free will actions of those nations and the individuals therein. Therefore, the prophecy you cited regarding Israel is also conditional. It may very well not come to pass. God believes it will. But that's not a 100% guarantee, any more than it was set in stone that Ninevah would be surely destroyed 40 days after the prophecy given by Jonah.


The problem with this is that you claim that God makes mistakes. God does not make mistakes. He is perfect. As to Jonah, I think all agree that in Jonah's prophecy of destruction, there was an implied condition that if they repented, God would spare them. The threat was real, but according to God's plan, they repented, and he spared them. And besides, that is not the same thing.

By this reasoning, God can become a false prophet to be judged according to the laws of the OT (or at least Paul could of for writing that in Romans--but it was inspired by God). Romans 11:26 does not say, "I believe or think all Israel will be saved.'' It says explicitly, "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED."

Not only does this make God a false prophet, it means Scripture is not inerrant. The Scriptures are fallible, which means we really can't trust them at all. These are the horrible consequences of open theism.

If God only thinks this is what will happen, and is not completely sure, and it could turn out that no Israel is saved, then Paul sure might have gone to a whole lot of wasted effort in writing Romans 11 (not to mention chapters 9 and 10).



Joel

*pulls up a chair, cracks open a Mt. Dew, and pops up some pocorn*

02-26-2003 @ 03:40 PM
joelkaki:

The problem with this is that you claim that God makes mistakes. God does not make mistakes. He is perfect. As to Jonah, I think all agree that in Jonah's prophecy of destruction, there was an implied condition that if they repented, God would spare them. The threat was real, but according to God's plan, they repented, and he spared them. And besides, that is not the same thing.

By this reasoning, God can become a false prophet to be judged according to the laws of the OT (or at least Paul could of for writing that in Romans--but it was inspired by God). Romans 11:26 does not say, "I believe or think all Israel will be saved.'' It says explicitly, "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED."

Not only does this make God a false prophet, it means Scripture is not inerrant. The Scriptures are fallible, which means we really can't trust them at all. These are the horrible consequences of open theism.

If God only thinks this is what will happen, and is not completely sure, and it could turn out that no Israel is saved, then Paul sure might have gone to a whole lot of wasted effort in writing Romans 11 (not to mention chapters 9 and 10).

Joel

This is the second-most common straw man argument used against Open Theism -- the accusation that we believe God makes mistakes. (Number 1 is, of course, that we reject God's omniscience.)

Absolutely, positively, without any question, GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES. I don't expect to persuade you to the Partially Open View, Joel, so don't feel that I'm trying to accomplish that. But please understand... we categorically reject that God makes mistakes, that God is anything less than perfect.

What we believe is that Man is imperfect, Man makes mistakes, and God responds to those decisions and errors.

Within the Partially Open View:

1. God has a plan
2. Man fails that plan
3. God adapts the plan

And God continues to adapt the plan, always demonstrating sovereignty over Man until His plan comes to fruition. God has many sub-plans within His grand scheme. Many of these sub-plans come to pass, and a few do not. Right before the Flood, God regreted making Man at all. If that's the case and if God exists outside of Time, why didn't God just unmake history, undo what He did? Erase it? No, God adapted the plan, killed everyone in the world except these eight people.

Your view says that God always knew Israel would fail, and so God set Israel up to fail, having always intended to go to the Gentiles as He has done. Such a belief is -- to an Open Theist -- unconscionable on God's part. Which view is the more offensive? I'll let you be the judge.

But please don't make the false accusation that we believe God makes mistakes. God NEVER makes mistakes. When He changes His mind, relents of His decision, repents of what He has done .... it's not because He screwed up. It's because we screwed up.

OK, I now understand better what you are saying. But in saying what you say, you contradict Eph 1:11. God works all things according to the counsel of his will. All things includes those things that seem to be against his plan. Those are worked BY HIM according to His plan. Open Theism would say that God works the results of all things according to his plan, i.e., he adapts his plans according to those things, working them into his plan, but that is clearly not what this verse says. God works all things according to his plan, not just the results worked into his plan, but the things themselves worked according to his plan.

But see, even though you claim that God does not make mistakes, but rather we do, and he has to respond to what we do, He still must have made a mistake in that system. He predicted something would happen, but He was mistaken. It didn't happen. Whether or not man is the one that didn't go according to that prediction is irrelevant. God's prediction did not come true, and thus He made a mistake.

Joel

According to Open Theism:

*God is waiting to see if they are able to respond accurately. Too bad he doesn't know yet.*


Joel

Joel so if I tell you keep driving on the I-5 and you will go to Oregon and instead you take the I-80 to Nevada please tell me how that makes me mistaken? According to your words I went wrong somewhere....please care to share.

02-26-2003 @ 04:02 PM
joelkaki:

OK, I now understand better what you are saying. But in saying what you say, you contradict Eph 1:11. God works all things according to the counsel of his will. All things includes those things that seem to be against his plan. Those are worked BY HIM according to His plan. Open Theism would say that God works the results of all things according to his plan, i.e., he adapts his plans according to those things, working them into his plan, but that is clearly not what this verse says. God works all things according to his plan, not just the results worked into his plan, but the things themselves worked according to his plan.

But see, even though you claim that God does not make mistakes, but rather we do, and he has to respond to what we do, He still must have made a mistake in that system. He predicted something would happen, but He was mistaken. It didn't happen. Whether or not man is the one that didn't go according to that prediction is irrelevant. God's prediction did not come true, and thus He made a mistake.

Joel

All Ephesians 1:11 means is that He incorporates all of our actions and decisions -- both righteous and unrighteous -- into His plan.

He works all things (including our decisions) according to His will. Where's the problem?

If you claim God doesn't respond to the actions and decisions of men and nations, how do you explain Jeremiah 18? God even says this in the first person through Jeremiah!

Your use of the word "mistaken" is an equivocation. You're trying to equate that word to being at fault, and that is a false leap. Being mistaken doesn't automatically put the fault on the mistaken individual. God told David that Saul was coming to Keilah, and that the men of Keilah would hand him (David) over to Saul. But neither of those events happened. And the story of Ninevah's conspicuous non-destruction on the 40th day stands. Why else would Paul warn us that the Gentiles may someday be (corporately) cut off just as Israel was?

There's no getting around Jeremiah 18. God responds to us; there can be no doubt.

Joel so if I tell you keep driving on the I-5 and you will go to Oregon and instead you take the I-80 to Nevada please tell me how that makes me mistaken? According to your words I went wrong somewhere....please care to share.

That is not at all the same thing. Notice Romans 11:26 does not say anything about God giving a specific command to us. It is God saying what would happen in the future, which, should it not occur, he was mistaken. The scenario is more like this: (Again, not an exact fit,but closer than yours)

I tell you that if you keep driving on I-20 East, you will reach Augusta, Georgia. Before reaching Augusta, the I-20 ceases to exist, and two other roads go opposite directions, neither one going to Augusta.

That is closer to it. God tells us in Romans 11:26 that something is going to happen, and yet you say it might not. Were we to adopt this sort of thinking, "It may very well not come to pass. God believes it will. But that's not a 100% guarantee" then we really can't trust any prediction of the Bible. We might as well forget God's promises and keep just trying to make our own way through life minding our own business, cause God isn't even 100% sure that what He said is going to happen is going to happen.

Joel

Yes, it is the exact same post. I originally posted it over there, because there was a declaration that someone was a "Acts 9, 12 out, OV, dispy" and I was responding to that logical inconsistency. But then I thought this should have its own thread. I need more answers to this than what Right Idea has said.
Everything can be moved over here, though.
Joel

02-26-2003 @ 11:02 PM
joelkaki:

OK, I now understand better what you are saying. But in saying what you say, you contradict Eph 1:11. God works all things according to the counsel of his will. All things includes those things that seem to be against his plan. Those are worked BY HIM according to His plan. Open Theism would say that God works the results of all things according to his plan, i.e., he adapts his plans according to those things, working them into his plan, but that is clearly not what this verse says. God works all things according to his plan, not just the results worked into his plan, but the things themselves worked according to his plan.

But see, even though you claim that God does not make mistakes, but rather we do, and he has to respond to what we do, He still must have made a mistake in that system. He predicted something would happen, but He was mistaken. It didn't happen. Whether or not man is the one that didn't go according to that prediction is irrelevant. God's prediction did not come true, and thus He made a mistake.

Joel

PERF

H

The threads have been merged and the relevant posts have been moved to this thread now.

All Ephesians 1:11 means is that He incorporates all of our actions and decisions -- both righteous and unrighteous -- into His plan.

That is not what the verse says. It says that He WORKS them according to his plan. To work is an action. He does not incorporate our actions and decisions into His plan. We act and we decide because he works them according to his plan. You cannot switch words to suit your purpose. It says "According to", not "into." Everything that happens happens because he worked it according to his plan. He does not work them into his plan. You make it sound as if some things happen outside of God's plan, and he figures out some way to respond to use it for his plan. That is a mangling of this verse. The things that happen, happen (are worked) because of His will.


He works all things (including our decisions) according to His will. Where's the problem?

The problem is explained above.


If you claim God doesn't respond to the actions and decisions of men and nations, how do you explain Jeremiah 18? God even says this in the first person through Jeremiah!

I never said God does not respond to the actions and decisions of men; but those actions and decisions were part of his plan in the first place.


Your use of the word "mistaken" is an equivocation. You're trying to equate that word to being at fault, and that is a false leap. Being mistaken doesn't automatically put the fault on the mistaken individual. God told David that Saul was coming to Keilah, and that the men of Keilah would hand him (David) over to Saul. But neither of those events happened. And the story of Ninevah's conspicuous non-destruction on the 40th day stands. Why else would Paul warn us that the Gentiles may someday be (corporately) cut off just as Israel was?

Again, those situations are different. There is an implied condition which I believe we agree on.


There's no getting around Jeremiah 18. God responds to us; there can be no doubt.

Sure, God responds; but that does not mean that our actions were not part of his predetermined plan.

Joel