So I saw a new story on my local news concerning billboards being spotted around the country stating that Christ would return on a very specific date in 2011, followed by God's destruction of Earth on October 1st 2011. At the bottom of these billboards was the address www.wecanknow.com.

Out of pure curiosity (I can remember being in middle school when the book "88 Reasons Christ Will Return In 1988" came out) I pulled that site up, and found it was basically a web portal to several other sites backing up this decidedly specific view. At random I chose to go to The Latter Rain website, and began reading their theories on numerology, how the verses concerning "no man will know" only refer to non-believers, etc etc etc.

They interesting theories as to dating of various biblical events, but some of their definitions for various things, such as "this number represents judgement" "this number represents salvation of the faithful" seem somewhat suspect.

Here's an example of their work:

http://www.the-latter-rain.com/studying-numbers.html


I was just curious if any of the guys from tektonics.org or other apologists had looked over their materials and what they thought of it, because it all seems to hinge on their belief in Biblical numerology and I've never been a big proponent of it, because it seems to be putting too much meaning on coincidence, much like the whole "Bible Code" fad from a few years ago.

A straightforward biblical reading implies that Jesus was in the grave 3 days Human Time, 3000 years God Time, preaching to spirits in prison of purgatory hell who are released after 3000 years to Judgment. Which implies Human Time 2000 years to return, 1000 years of Millennium, then Judgment. Then the complete Temple of Heaven is made by Jesus, destroyed and raised up after 3 days of 3000 years God Time. The numerology stuff is just tweaking out on it all as I can see.

This is a very, very old game. Christians have been using numerology (and uniformly looking silly subsequently) forever. Pretty much every major war in history has been linked numerology to "The End." You are correct not to pay this particular example much mind.

Originally posted by Rainbow Brite

A straightforward biblical reading implies that Jesus was in the grave 3 days Human Time, 3000 years God Time, preaching to spirits in prison of purgatory hell who are released after 3000 years to Judgment. Which implies Human Time 2000 years to return, 1000 years of Millennium, then Judgment. Then the complete Temple of Heaven is made by Jesus, destroyed and raised up after 3 days of 3000 years God Time. The numerology stuff is just tweaking out on it all as I can see.

There is no such thing as "God Time."

Originally posted by RBerman

There is no such thing as "God Time."

That's what the book says.

2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

That does not mean that it is an exact ratio. The meaning is simple. God is not bound by time and the passing of time for a man. If we accept the 1 day=1000 years, then the second part of the verse should be a thousand years is 365,000,000 days, but it says 1000 years is as 1 day.

Originally posted by Mike74

So I saw a new story on my local news concerning billboards being spotted around the country stating that Christ would return on a very specific date in 2011, followed by God's destruction of Earth on October 1st 2011. At the bottom of these billboards was the address www.wecanknow.com.

Out of pure curiosity (I can remember being in middle school when the book "88 Reasons Christ Will Return In 1988" came out) I pulled that site up, and found it was basically a web portal to several other sites backing up this decidedly specific view. At random I chose to go to The Latter Rain website, and began reading their theories on numerology, how the verses concerning "no man will know" only refer to non-believers, etc etc etc.

They interesting theories as to dating of various biblical events, but some of their definitions for various things, such as "this number represents judgement" "this number represents salvation of the faithful" seem somewhat suspect.

Here's an example of their work:

http://www.the-latter-rain.com/studying-numbers.html


I was just curious if any of the guys from tektonics.org or other apologists had looked over their materials and what they thought of it, because it all seems to hinge on their belief in Biblical numerology and I've never been a big proponent of it, because it seems to be putting too much meaning on coincidence, much like the whole "Bible Code" fad from a few years ago.

There was a group of old guys witnessing and promoting this in the streets near by house awhile ago. I asked one them why they thought 2011 was "the" year, then one of them began to explain it, my eyes glazed over, and that was the last time I gave it much thought. If Christ doesn't return before that time, they'll just come up with an excuse, revise their numbers and formulas and it will be yet another blackeye to eschatology. If this is how God wanted us to calculate his return, then he wouldn't have left the historical dates of events so questionable and uncertain. No one's even sure when Christ was born and when he died.

if it were a literal 2000 years then Jesus wouldn't be coming back until 2033 since he died in AD33 (give or take a few years) - not 2011.

so when 2011 passes by, then 2012 (I am sure people will associate the mayan crap with Jesus' return), then I bet the next predicted date will be 2033

All these predictions are just idiotic.

Jesus said to be prepared. he can come back at ANY moment. and besides, we all get to meet him when we die, so worrying about when he comes back to earth is not something most people should worry about.

Originally posted by Sparko

if it were a literal 2000 years then Jesus wouldn't be coming back until 2033 since he died in AD33 (give or take a few years) - not 2011.

so when 2011 passes by, then 2012 (I am sure people will associate the mayan crap with Jesus' return), then I bet the next predicted date will be 2033

All these predictions are just idiotic.

Jesus said to be prepared. he can come back at ANY moment. and besides, we all get to meet him when we die, so worrying about when he comes back to earth is not something most people should worry about.

Yep we can die at any time and the world can end for us. But a straightforward reading of the Bible implies this.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

That does not mean that it is an exact ratio. The meaning is simple. God is not bound by time and the passing of time for a man. If we accept the 1 day=1000 years, then the second part of the verse should be a thousand years is 365,000,000 days, but it says 1000 years is as 1 day.

I guess 1000 years can mean 2000 years if your doctrine requires it. Maybe if I had a theory Jesus was in the grave 4 days like Lazarus I could tack on another day there too.

But I don't really need to do either, I don't hold any positions like that.

Mine just says Peter is talking about the end of the world being a good way off because Jesus is giving people a chance to repent.

2Peter 3:8-9 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But not just the living, the dead in Hell too, which Jesus said was like Jonah repenting in the fish.

1Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Thus Jesus went to the prison of Hell for 3 days in our time, but 3000 years in eternity, getting people to repent, then after that 3000 years they go to Judgment to see if they have or not:

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Then those who repented in Hell go on to Heaven and those not go to the Lake of Fire, and the entire Church of Jesus is built and completed.

2Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

That's why when Jesus said he is raising the Temple, he's not just talking about the resurrection, but also about raising the Temple of New Jerusalem after 3000 years and the Judgment.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

From there, if the Millennium starts 1000 before Judgment, and there are 2000 years before that of the 3 days of repenting until the Millennium, then that would place the start of the Millennium in the 21st century.

But I'm no prophet so this is just my position, and the most sensible one to me right now based on the actual text which I see no reason to ignore.

Psalm 90:4 belies this supposed "straightforward reading of the Bible." There one day in the sight of the Lord is compared to a watch in the night. A watch in the night was 4 hours. You are not reading the Bible in a straight forward manner. That implies that you actually try to understand what it is saying.

Originally posted by Jedidiah

Psalm 90:4 belies this supposed "straightforward reading of the Bible." There one day in the sight of the Lord is compared to a watch in the night. A watch in the night was 4 hours. You are not reading the Bible in a straight forward manner. That implies that you actually try to understand what it is saying.

By straightforward, 1 day = 1000 years means closer to 1000 years rather than 2000 years. I don't mean that we should ignore all other related prophecy.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Jesus wasn't saying he would return within 4 hours, the hours are irrelevant. He was saying he would return within thousands of years, so keep watching as you would watch at night. As Peter implied, and as this implies:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

For 1000 years = 1 day, so keep watching and don't think the delay means he isn't coming.

From related Honor thread:

Originally posted by Sparko

yup. If God wanted us to know when Jesus was coming back, he would have just told us. He wants us ready and prepared and NOT knowing. If we knew we would grow lazy.

Thanks for the pick

Noah knew but he still kept busy building the Ark.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

Matthew 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

Matthew 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Jonah was scared to tell anyone judgment was coming, so they could try to repent.

What is the sign of Jonah?

Originally posted by Rainbow Brite

What is the sign of Jonah?

Matthew 12:38-40

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Originally posted by RBerman

Matthew 12:38-40

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

A few points.

• Jesus mentioned the sign twice, in Matthew 12:39 and Matthew 16:4.
• Jesus went to a spirit prison, where people repent like Jonah, 1Peter 3:19 and Matthew 12:40.
• Jesus brings all to repentance, and 1 day = 1000 years vice-versa, 2Peter 3:8-8.
• Jesus raised the Temple of his body after 3 days, John 2:20-21.
• Jesus raised the Temple of New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:22.

So the 2 Signs of Jonah appear in part to be:

3 days of converting the living on earth, up to the point of Judgment when earth passes away, Revelation 20:11.

3 days of converting the dead in Hell, up to the point of Judgment when Hell gives up its dead, Revelation 20:13.

Where 3 days = 3000 years to raising the Temple, and 3000 years = 3 days to raising the Temple.

Originally posted by Rainbow Brite

A few points.

• Jesus mentioned the sign twice, in Matthew 12:39 and Matthew 16:4.
• Jesus went to a spirit prison, where people repent like Jonah, 1Peter 3:19 and Matthew 12:40.
• Jesus brings all to repentance, and 1 day = 1000 years vice-versa, 2Peter 3:8-8.
• Jesus raised the Temple of his body after 3 days, John 2:20-21.
• Jesus raised the Temple of New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:22.

So the 2 Signs of Jonah appear in part to be:

3 days of converting the living on earth, up to the point of Judgment when earth passes away, Revelation 20:11.

3 days of converting the dead in Hell, up to the point of Judgment when Hell gives up its dead, Revelation 20:13.

Where 3 days = 3000 years to raising the Temple, and 3000 years = 3 days to raising the Temple.

Bill the Cat already addressed your fallacy of thinking that there's such a thing as "God Time." But your post is a marvelous example for all the readers to see how "special pleading" numerology can twist the Bible into saying pretty much anything you want it to say. So please carry on; I'm sure you have some other examples to "enlighten" us with.

Originally posted by RBerman

Bill the Cat already addressed your fallacy of thinking that there's such a thing as "God Time." But your post is a marvelous example for all the readers to see how "special pleading" numerology can twist the Bible into saying pretty much anything you want it to say. So please carry on; I'm sure you have some other examples to "enlighten" us with.

How is it special pleading if I say 1000 years = 1000 years, and not special pleading if you say 1000 years = 1900+ years?

That's kinda backwards,