Archived - John's "Generation" Thread - TheologyWeb Campus
TheologyWeb Campus TheologyWeb Campus


Hello and welcome to TheologyWeb – theology debate with a serious dose of fun! It has been our goal to create one of the best and most innovative discussion sites on the Net. Please visit our forums where we debate and discuss everything from religion, politics, lifestyle, pop culture, to who is the coolest member of the moderating team. Register now and join in the fun, its free, easy, and makes Dee Dee Warren happy.




*This site is best viewed in Mozilla Firefox with a minimum display resolution of 1024x768.

Reply

John's "Generation" Thread
View First Unread
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 07:55 AM
 
 
 
 
 
I wonder if there is enough interest for this to work:

I'd like to take a long slow look at the word “generation” in the Bible, considering what is meant by the word in the context of each individual occurrence.

May I be permitted to make serial posts of an occurrence of the word per day, or something like that?

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
GrayPilgrim is offline
GrayPilgrim Christus Rex
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Libertarian  
Posts: 5,219
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 4859 | Anti-Spam: 195
Pearls: 397
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 09:35 AM
 
 
 
 
That sounds like a profitable study!

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Reading the Bible in a translation is like kissing your bride through the veil."
Rabbinic Saying

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
JOHN OWEN, III:433
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 09:47 AM
 
 
 
 
Thanks, GP.

Yours is the opinion that matters most to me re this project, which was inspired by comments you made on another thread. I was intrigued by what you wrote, and I wish to learn more about what you see in the biblical texts.

John.

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 04:27 PM
 
 
 
 
My search tool is The Eerdmans Analytical Concordance to the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, compiled by Richard E. Whitaker.

My text is the English Standard Version.

The Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greeks words, which are rendered “generation” or “generations” in the RSV (search tool) and the ESV (text/context), will be copied from the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS), The Septuagint (LXX), and The Greek New Testament (Nestle-Aland).

My source for textual exegesis by professional scholars is Commentary on the Old Testament by C. F. Keil and F. Delitzsch.

My source for definition of Hebrew and Aramaic words is A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Based on the First, Second, and Third Editions of the Koehler-Baumgartner Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, edited by William L. Holladay.

I invite GP and others to provide input from supplementary sources.

Genesis 2

4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. (ESV)

In Genesis 2:4, the word rendered “generations” is תולדות.

I invite GP to give contemporary pronunciation and/or transliteration. What I was taught when I learned Hebrew at Duke University in the mid 20th century is not what is currently the norm.

The LXX has γεσεως (a grammatical form of genea).

Holliday gives this: collective plural : -1. (line) of descendants (i.e., genealogical list from ancestor) Gn 5:1 & often ; - 2. (one’s) generation, contempories Gn 6:9 ; - 3. story of development of generations > history Gn 37:2 ; > origin Gn 2:4 ; > order of birth Ex 28:10.

So, in the context of the creation story, the sense of the word תולדות is origin.

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 07:47 PM
 
 
 
 
תולדות (introduced in the prior post above) is one of three words in the Hebrew Bible which are rendered “generation” or “generations” in English versions.

The other two words are Hebrew דור and Aramaic דר. We will consider these when we come to them.

A note about the pace of new posts on this thread:

I hope to keep to a schedule of at least one new post per day, but in the near future there may be temporary pauses in that prospective pace, for medical reasons.

Tomorrow I go to see a surgeon to consider the findings of a CT scan. If a need for surgery is indicated, there will be a period of recovery that may affect the rate of new posts.

‘Just don’t want anyone to think I have abandoned this as a long-range project, which I hope to persevere in all the way through to Hebrews 3:10 – or maybe even 1 Maccabees 2:61 (Whitaker lists references in the Apocrypha after those in the New Testament).

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
GrayPilgrim is offline
GrayPilgrim Christus Rex
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Libertarian  
Posts: 5,219
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 4859 | Anti-Spam: 195
Pearls: 397
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 09:23 PM
 
 
 
 
I am looking forward to this John.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Reading the Bible in a translation is like kissing your bride through the veil."
Rabbinic Saying

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
JOHN OWEN, III:433
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 15th 2003 , 09:44 PM
 
 
 
 
Thanks, GP.

I'm looking forward to your contributions.


 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Faramir is offline
Faramir The REAL Tea Party Movement ->
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Libertarian  
Posts: 21,332
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 27862 | Anti-Spam: 2770
Pearls: 425
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 07:52 AM
 
 
 
 
Well, I know zero Hebrew, and just enough Greek to be dangerous, so I do not plan to contribute. But I look forward to the contributions of abler scholars.

 
  Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2008 Alumnus Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: debate warrior Dean: is mighty! - Issue reason: preterists rule, futurists drool    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Where is human nature so weak as in the bookstore?- Henry Ward Beecher

"I agree fully with all Faramir has said" - Dee Dee Warren

“Duty…is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things…. You cannot do more; you should never wish to do less.” -- Robert E. Lee
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 07:57 AM
 
 
 
 
Genesis 5

Adam's Descendants to Noah

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. (ESV)

The word rendered “generations” in Genesis 5:1 is תולדות.

The rendering in the LXX is γεσεως (an inflection of genea).

Per Holladay, in the context of Genesis 5:1, the sense of תולדות is collective plural : -1. (line) of descendants (i.e., genealogical list from ancestor).

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
dizzle is offline
dizzle wet bird
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 46,017
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 21575 | Anti-Spam: 3353
Pearls: 16
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 07:58 AM
 
 
 
 
This is gonna be good.

 
  Amen Award: most amened twebber - Issue reason: making Xavier orange with envy Salutatorian: top thread starter - Issue reason: doesnt know how to keep silent Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: Warrior Princess Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: September 2003 Alumnus Chancellor: is all mighty! - Issue reason: motherhen    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
Nochyu mokraya ptitsa nikogda ne letaet.
A wet bird never flies at night. -unknown [old Russian proverb]

Eudyptes: you are....as usual....100% correct
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 08:10 AM
 
 
 
 
Today @ 12:52 PM post located here
Faramir:


Well, I know zero Hebrew, and just enough Greek to be dangerous, so I do not plan to contribute. But I look forward to the contributions of abler scholars.
Happy to have your here, Faramir!

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 08:12 AM
 
 
 
 
Today @ 12:58 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:


This is gonna be good.


Thanks for the encouragement, Dee Dee!

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
GrayPilgrim is offline
GrayPilgrim Christus Rex
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Libertarian  
Posts: 5,219
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 4859 | Anti-Spam: 195
Pearls: 397
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 12:31 PM
 
 
 
 
I was wondering if you would be working through the תולדות sectoions, my one question is why not start with 2:4?

"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Reading the Bible in a translation is like kissing your bride through the veil."
Rabbinic Saying

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
JOHN OWEN, III:433
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 03:15 PM
 
 
 
 
Today @ 05:31 PM post located here
GrayPilgrim:


I was wondering if you would be working through the תולדות sections, my one question is why not start with 2:4?

"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."


I did!

See post # 4


 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
GrayPilgrim is offline
GrayPilgrim Christus Rex
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Libertarian  
Posts: 5,219
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 4859 | Anti-Spam: 195
Pearls: 397
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 03:18 PM
 
 
 
 
Thanks, I missed it somehow and went straight ot #5.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Reading the Bible in a translation is like kissing your bride through the veil."
Rabbinic Saying

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
JOHN OWEN, III:433
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
John Reece is offline
John Reece Doing what He said
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Conservative  
Posts: 11,802
Join Date: February 22nd, 2003
Spam: 5147 | Anti-Spam: 11403
Pearls: 0
 
Old
  April 16th 2003 , 04:13 PM
 
 
 
 
GP,

I was wondering if you would be working through the תולדות sections...
The search word is "generation", so the Hebrew and Aramaic words will be not be considered in separate sections.

 
  Alumnus of the Year: AotY vote winner - Issue reason: 2007 co-Alumnus of the Year Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: February 2004 & October 2007 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

« Previous Thread   |   Post New Thread   |   Next Thread »


 
Forum Jump  

Page generated in 0.81911 seconds with 14 queries