I am going to be buying his Revelation MP3s one by one and goihng through them.

:woo hoo:

ok

This is way awesome.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

I am going to be buying his Revelation MP3s one by one and goihng through them.

:woo hoo:

Can you get those on line? and if yes where?

Sounds really great.

www.cmfnow.com

It is not cheap though but manageable if one only gets a few a week. They have a ton of great MP3s but not for free. But a good study of Revelation IMHO is worth it.

Okay I am listening to the first tape - it is forty minutes long. Greg is describing the backdrop and the reasons why today we find it so mystifying, and why it would not have been to the original audience.

One interesting nugget that I never picked up is where he pointed out that these things must shortly take place.

My eyes, as a preterist, jump to the "shortly" - but in so doing I miss the "must." It is emphatic. It is not optional. Not only must these things take place which could be at any time - theymust shortly take place

I have a free and "open source" alternitive, he is quite in depth and not a Calvinists, Steve Gregg, yes the same one who did the four view commentary on Revelation. <Revelation> He has a commentary on <Eschatology>

Say, who is Greg Bahnsen (Web site?), and isn't Steve Gregg Pre-trib/Post-mil?

Thanks,

Starkman

Originally posted by Starkman

Say, who is Greg Bahnsen (Web site?), and isn't Steve Gregg Pre-trib/Post-mil?

Thanks,

Starkman

No Steve is Amill, pretrists/idealists.

Thanks,

I just found a site or two on him.

Starkman

I have listened to the first 12 in the series. We have the entire set on CD now, so I'm working my way through them.

Joel

Okay I learned some cool things. Of course we all know that John is alluding a great deal to the OT. Bahnsen made the point that John is intending with a few words to import in a whole background context - this would be similar to what Jesus did on the Cross with Psalm 22 - the ignorance of which makes sceptics say all kinds of retarded things, anyows...


You guys may know a few things I have had kicking around in my head, and if I didn't have to work and could go to seminary which has been a dream of mine, I would eventually make these ideas my work. One was the tying in of the Eschatological Exodus imagery of the Church into the Promised Land. Bauckham explores this in God Crucified, but he is not preterist, and in my opinion, that is the missing link that has alluded him. The Church went through the forty years in the "desert" mixed in and associated with the unbelieving part of the Israel, while they were the Israel of God - God like with the ancient Israelites, gave a generation to kill off the apostates, then they entered the promised land - ie the millennium - the Messianic reign in power but like the ancient Israelites the land was wild, it was inhabited by the enemy,, and it has to be conquered - the postmillennial vision. Once the last enemy is destroyed the fullness of the new creation comes - the eternal state. It is such a fit that I get rapturous over it.

That is one of my overarching redemptive themes that is so clear to me in the Bible. Bu the second, and this is not anything I personally have read elsewhere, so I must be cautious, but I believe the Messianic Reign IS the coming of Christ. Now I am not denying the Second Coming, not at all. In fact I am using the word "coming" in two different ways. But Christ is has come physically, He is coming now in rule and reign, and He will consummate the Kingdom physically. Understanding the present coming of Christ cures a great deal of the heretical antichrist NeoHymenaean dogma that has snared the unwary and the arrogant (and I say arrogant for it is the lie of satan that some recent band of heretics is going to overturn the testimony of the millennia on doctrines that have been core to the faith).

Anyways... let me continue in the next post what I learned today from Bahnsen.

Scripture Verse:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

This is an allusion to God commissing Moses out of the burning bush. The I AM is speaking. This is tieing in directly the continuity of the OT with the NT. The One People of God.

Scripture Verse:

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood...

We have been set free by sacrificial blood, just as the prototype Israel was delivered from its bondage to Egypt by sacrificial blood. The Ideal Passover Lamb has come - to the Ideal People of God of whom the forebears were types, yet continuous.

Scripture Verse:

and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father

Ex 19:4-6

You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

My goodness I got goosebumps. The things said of Israel are said of us. We can keep the covenant because Christ is the surety. We have the promises of Israel because we are the continuation of Israel.

1 Peter 2:9-10

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

How can everyone NOT see this? There are not two peoples of God. We are pulled into the already existing people of God and partake of their promises. And BTW this Petrine verse decimates the dispies who will say Peter was not written to the Church - it clearly is applicable to Gentiles for it follows the theme "who were once not a people" - the Jews were in fact a people. And it echoes Paul's words in Romans 9:25-26 how the Gentiles were not a people, but now are, and now are sons of the living God.

Bahsen also went to Isaiah 61 which speaks of the restoration and subjugation of the world under God, yet what is the context? The famous passage cited by Christ - "The spirit of the Lord is upon Me for He has annointed Me to preach good tidings......" ie THE GOSPEL. This is the Kingdom and that is how we rule.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Bu the second, and this is not anything I personally have read elsewhere, so I must be cautious, but I believe the Messianic Reign IS the coming of Christ. Now I am not denying the Second Coming, not at all. In fact I am using the word "coming" in two different ways. But Christ is has come physically, He is coming now in rule and reign, and He will consummate the Kingdom physically. Understanding the present coming of Christ cures a great deal of the heretical antichrist NeoHymenaean dogma that has snared the unwary and the arrogant (and I say arrogant for it is the lie of satan that some recent band of heretics is going to overturn the testimony of the millennia on doctrines that have been core to the faith).

I don't believe this is too far fetched, and have been thinking through a similar idea. My thinking started with salvation (I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.) This carries the past, present, and future aspects of the Kingdom in my personal life as well as the corporate, I believe. James Jordan develops this ideas better than anyone I know. There are quite a few that believe he takes things too far, but I believe he is on the right track.

Spend some time with Ridderbos and Vos and you will find "similar" ideas.

dynomite

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Anyways... let me continue in the next post what I learned today from Bahnsen.

Dr. Bahnsen was one of my favorite Bible teachers. Glad his stuff is being brought out here.

I have always felt that the moving of the Israelites from the desert into Canaan was an "obtaining the promise"; Canaan not being a type of heaven or anything like that. But once one obtains the promise--e.g., moves into the "inheritance," there are still battles to be fought. So in this regard, I am in much agreement with Dee Dee.

Where I am more cautious is in doing away with any concept of Israel as still to achieve and obtain specific promises. For instance, how do we deal with the three passages below which address the same issue? One was given to Abraham, one to Jacob and one to Joseph's children. (All Scripture from the ESV.)

Genesis 17:5-6 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.

Genesis 35:11 And God said to him, “I am God Almighty: [4] be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall come from your own body.

Genesis 48:19 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude [4] of nations.”

Where can it be said that Israel ever fulfilled these promises, that they ever obtained them? I have my own idea, and my idea doesn't move Israel the nation outside of being the people of God in order to fulfill these promises. I'll wait, though, to see what others have to say.

Thanks,

Starkman