In this thread I woudl like to discuss both the importance of the Trinity and the nature of the Trinity. As a starter-- I would say that the Trinity is an essential doctrine as it has many implications not only on other theological postions but on our actions. If one holds to an Arian vew [i.e. the Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate/jr. beings] then it will lead to abuse of power and de-huminization of women. If one holds to a mutual submission view then itwill lead to a break down in the social order. It is for that reason that I beleive the only appropriate view is the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father and the eternal subordination of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son.



[I have intentionally been dogmatic in this post with no Biblical citations to start the debate, not as a defense of my position]

Let the debating begin!

I believe that the trinity is one, but three seperate "positions." For instance, I am a son, a brother, and a friend. I am not three sepearate people, it's just me.

There is God, the Father. There is God, the Son and Redeemer of man, and God, the Holy Spirit who lives in all who accept Christ.

The Trinity is three persons.

**7**say hey ibowatjesusfeet, ya said--

I believe that the trinity is one, but three seperate "positions." For instance, I am a son, a brother, and a friend. I am not three sepearate people, it's just me.

**8** hmm. while your desire to reject tritheism is undoubtedly correct, you're falling into the error of modalism. the Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Father. they are three distinct persons, each of whom necessarily presupposes the existence of the other two.
peace.

Modalism is a ancient heresy that used to exist in the early church. Most of the church members were undoubtely Trinitarians in the fullest sense of the word. But there were some that weren't and they were condemned heretics. People back then defended the trinity and would die for it.

Generally the orthodox Trinitarian presentation has been:

God is one. God is made up of three distinct persons. God has always existed as three distinct persons. Thus we have the teaching that these three distinct persons are not different modes of existence of the One God, but three distinct persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit]. And to quote the phrase from the Arian controversy "There is not when he was not., which was to counter Arius's teaching that the Son is a later creation of the Father with his phrase, "There is when he was not."

So I would argue that the eternal subordination of the Son teaches us that within the God head there is equal value, but a definite hierarchy. {What I would not do to be near my Sys Theo books and note!} This gets us into the filioque clause of the clause, which split the church between teh East and West in the Middle Ages (1033 if I recall). In which it states that the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father [i]and the Son[/].

More food for thought.


GP


PS Ibow thanks for the post, and rememeber this is stuff that we will never get our heads around, we're just too small.

This thread is like evangelion bait.

granting that there is only one God, and that this God is tripersonal, in what sense, then, is God "one"?

in what way are the Father, Son, and Spirit related to one another (ps graypilgrim, it was 1056 a.d.), and how do these relations effect/define that oneness?

peace

Thanks phantaz sunlyk for the date, I talked my self out of anything ending with a 6 thinking I was confusing it with 1066 and William the Conqueror.

We need an anti-Trin invite. Someone logical and rational for once, eh?

Contact Brandon K from CARM.. The meanest, toughest, and most "illogical" anti-Trinitarian there is. 'Nuff said'.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of a subordinate spirit and Son leading to the bad treatment of women?

Originally posted by cirisme
This thread is like evangelion bait.

Egomanion has started his own private forum where he can talk to those who admire his brilliance.

Let's see....himself...his brother....

I guess that's it.

Originally posted by Pilgrim
I'm not sure I follow the logic of a subordinate spirit and Son leading to the bad treatment of women?

And you're clergy of the Presbyterian Church?

Hmm, I see subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father, but not sure about the Spirit to the Son.

say hey y'all, i just wrote Brian Holt and invited him over here. Brian has written a very long book contra the deity of Christ (which i reviewed at mista J.P. Holding's tektonics.org). he's a JW, and very good at defending unitarianism from the point of view of sola scriptura.

i hope he comes.

peace.