Scripture declares the following:


And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

- Revelation 11: 2-6


God clearly used Elijah prayers to stop the rains in the Old Testament.

The book of James declares regarding Elijah (called Elias in the KJV):

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

- James 5:17


Moses through the power of God caused the water to turn into blood and their to be plagues in Egypt.

Therefore, it would not be surprising that the world experience similar judgment in the book of Revelation which is filled with judgment.

So here is my question to preterists: "Where are the historical records of the drought(s) around 70 A.D. ? Anything in the Jerusalem Talmud? Do you have a drought that is thousand two hundred [and] threescore days long?

Now if you do not have historical records it is not damning to your eschatology but on the other hand given that it is very helpful to evidentially support a eschatology if you wish to assert it evidence of such a drought would certainly be helpful. Below is a hightlight of two rules of the historian Fischer that I think apply (Fischer wrote a book on how to avoid historical fallacies):

Here is a highlight of two of Fischer's rules taken from Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict:

(1) The burden of proof for a historical claim is always upon the one making the assertion....

(4) "Evidence must always be affirmative." Negative evidence is no evidence at all.

(see: Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict, page 674, 1999, Mark MCGarry, Texas Type and Book Works, Dallas, TX, ISBN 0-7852-4219-8)

taken from: "The apparent futurist eschatology of the Apostle John's disciples and its relevancy" at: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36762

Now given the total lack of earliest church fathers who ascribed to preterism for about the first 150 years of Christendom and the abundance of earliest church fathers who were premillennialist and/or futurist clearly I think the preterists need to start providing evidence of a historical nature to support their eschatology. For example, historical testimony of the church father Papias, a companion of Polycarp and someone who likely met John according the historical records in my estimation:

Papias

"The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth." - Eusebius, commentary on Papias, History of the Ecclesia, book 3, ch.39

taken from: "The Earliest Church Father's Eschatology" at http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=436

I suspect given my initial efforts to find significant drought (or droughts) around the time of 70 A.D. in Israel (or the world) that this may be yet another case where preterism fails.

I previously wrote:

I suspect given my initial efforts to find significant drought (or droughts) around the time of 70 A.D. in Israel (or the world) that this may be yet another case where preterism fails.

I wish to revise this and say:

I suspect given my initial efforts to find significant drought (or droughts) around the time of 70 A.D. in Israel (or a significant worldwide drought or droughts) that this may be yet another case where preterism fails to be corroborated by historical evidence.

(1) The burden of proof for a historical claim is always upon the one making the assertion....

What comes after the "..."? Is it important? Do you know?

TO: Dee Dee

I see you have a drought of drought data for the time period around 70 A.D. at the present time. Don't think this has escaped my notice!

I hope rain data is found for the period in question. If it is found I might add a sound file to this thread. It will be me singing the following:

Doo-dloo-doo-doo-doo
Doo-dloo-doo-doo-doo-doo
Doo-dloo-doo-doo-doo-doo
Doo-dloo-doo-doo-doo-doo...

I'm singing in the rain
Just singing in the rain
What a glorious feelin'
I'm happy again
I'm laughing at clouds
So dark up above
The sun's in my heart
And I'm ready for love
Let the stormy clouds chase
Everyone from the place
Come on with the rain
I've a smile on my face
I walk down the lane
With a happy refrain
Just singin',
Singin' in the rain

Dancin' in the rain
Dee-ah dee-ah dee-ah
Dee-ah dee-ah dee-ah
I'm happy again!
I'm singin' and dancin' in the rain!

I'm dancin' and singin' in the rain...
[ADDITIONAL VERSE]
Why am I smiling
And why do I sing?
Why does September
Seem sunny as spring?
Why do I get up
Each morning and start?
Happy and head up
With joy in my heart
Why is each new task
A trifle to do?
Because I am living
A life full of you.

- Lyrics from the song Singin' in the Rain

Don't you back up your quotes Ken? Very well I will take it up in our thread. I was giving you a chance to answer if you would be willing to provide the missing elipsis information.

Dee Dee,

Still no drought information? Your diversion is not working for this bulldog.

Sincerely,

Ken

Was not my intention so far on this thread.

TO: Rightidea

Where can I get an umbrella smiley?

Sincerely,

Ken

Here's my guess. Drought and famine were experienced inside Jerusalem as it was surrounded by the Roman armies. You'll find some pretty horrifying stories of how bad it got inside the walls during the seige if you read some Josephus.

Is there a river running through/from Jerusalem? I'm not sure, to be honest. But there's my guess. I'm probably very wrong. But I don't see it as much of a problem, considering how bad it got in Jerusalem.

TO: spiritmeth


Here is what the Bible says about the time of the witnesses:

Scripture declares the following:


And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

- Revelation 11: 2-6



Apparently, here is how long Jerusalem was besieged:

70
Siege of Jerusalem for 134 days by Romans under Vespasian. Jerusalem falls. Tisha B'Av--Second Temple destroyed by Titus.

taken from: http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=222

134 days is not thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.





RAIN!


Secondly, the Bible says the two witnesses are responsible for rain not falling. The Romans are not the two witnesses nor did they stop the rain from falling.

Also, there was plenty of rain near the time when Jerusalem was attacked in 70 A.D.

I cite the following:

In the time of Ezechias there were many springs of running water in the neighbourhood of Jerusalem, and the king stopped them all (II Par., xxxii, 2-5). Josephus relates that when Titus was besieging Jerusalem many springs flowed so abundantly that they sufficed, not only to give drinking water to the Romans but to irrigate the gardens (Bell. Jud., V, iv, 2). West of the city the ground was covered with gardens (Bell. Jud., VI, ii, 2; vii, 2) and this is why the western gate bore the name of Gennath, "Gate of the Gardens". Here Titus pitched his camp and here the officers of Sennacherib halted (IV Kings, xviii, 17. Cf, Is., vii, 3). Among the living waters of Jerusalem the Babylonian Talmud commemorates the "Beth Mamila" (Neubauer, op. cit., p. 146), that is, the Birket Mamilla. Cyril of Scythopolis (loc. cit.) relates that in the great five-years' drought "the waters of Siloe and of the Lucillians ceased to flow". Lastly Josephus says that a conduit under the Gate of Gennath brought water to the Tower of Hippicus (Bell. Jud., V, vii, 3). Several fragments of ancient aqueducts have been discovered under the Jaffa Gate and about the Hammana el Batrak, commonly called the Pool of Ezechias.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08344a.htm

Of course, this does not necessarily mean the rain was not super recent but it does make the preterist case weaker in my estimation at least.

Originally posted by kendemyer

TO: Rightidea

Where can I get an umbrella smiley?

Sincerely,

Ken

How should I know?

Originally posted by RightIdea

How should I know?

that was one of the wierdest requests I have heard in a long time

TO: Dee Dee

Given that the thread is about "rain" I do not see the weirdness of a joke about umbrella smileys. Whether the joke was funny or not is another matter!

Sheesh, if I have to explain it to you I will think you are a blonde.

TO: Dee Dee

I think that post was posted just to try to get my goat. It didn't work.

Sincerely,

Ken