What are best sources for a early date Exodus - 1446 B.C. (traditional view)? - TheologyWeb Campus
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What are best sources for a early date Exodus - 1446 B.C. (traditional view)?
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kendemyer is offline
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Old
  November 27th 2004 , 05:17 PM
 
 
Last edited by kendemyer : November 27th 2004 at 05:44 PM .  
 
 
I am looking for the best sources that support a early date exodus which is the traditional view (a Jewish Exodus of 1446 B.C ). I am also looking for anti-late date Exodus arguments.

I am not looking for sources or arguments that disagree with the focus of this thread. I am also not looking for comments indicating that I am a narrow or small minded person just because I want to concentrate on this view. I have reasons for believing the Exodus happened as per the Bible. For example, I believe the Dr. Macht study published by John Hopkins provides evidence that the Torah was divinely inspired (see: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27048 ).

With that in mind, here are my favorite early date sources that I have found that I believe provide excellent arguments with the best arguments given first:

1. Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia under the topic heading "Exodus, the" (Wycliffe Bible Enycyclopedia, Moody Bible Press, 1986, pages 573-576, Chicago). These are the pages that focus on the date of the Exodus although the Exodus article is longer (I like the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia because it is very scholarly, concise, and reasonable in my estimation).

2. The Date of the Conquest by Bruce K. Waltke
Westminster Theological Journal 52.2 (Fall 1990): 181-200. which can be accessed here: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/ar...te_waltke.html

3. I also liked reading the early date arguments of Bruce Waltke, Charles Dyer, Douglas MacCallum, Lindsay Judisch, John Bimson, and Bryant Wood for the early date view (see: http://www.angelfire.com/nm/massimol...ni/exodus.html ).

4. From the rabbinical sources I like Rabbi Dr. Dovid Gottlieb's commentary regarding the Exodus which discusses archeology plus his discussion of the "Kazari principle" in defending the Exodus. The Kuzari principle is a classical work of Jewish philosophy by Rabbi Yehuda Halevi. (the see: http://ohr.edu/special/books/gott/truth-5.htm and "kuzari principle" at: http://ohr.edu/special/books/gott/truth-6.htm ). I also liked Rabbi Ken Spiro's articles regarding the Exodus and archeology (see: http://www.aish.com/societyWork/scie...the_Exodus.asp and http://www.aish.com/societyWork/scie...e_-_Part_2.asp ). Here is a related article regarding the fragmentary and imprecise/interpretive aspects of archeology: http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=185

(Being a Christian, I do not necessarily endorse everything that may be found at the above sites [who Jesus was, etc.)

5. I also liked the Christian Courier article called: Myth or History: Did Jericho’s Walls Come Down? by Jason Jackson published on Monday, January 1, 2001 which is related to the Exodus (see: http://www.christiancourier.com/feature/january2001.htm ). Bryant Wood's findings are also defended here: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a011.html

6. Here is an interesting web article which discusses the Exodus in regards to a volcanic eruption and the Biblical account of the events surrounding the Exodus: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/thera.html

However, there is some controversy to this issue as can be seen here:

The eruption of Thera occured around 1450-1500 B.C.E. according to archaeological dating which is during the same time frame as the scriptural dating for the Exodus of Moses (1447 B.C.E.)

(Note that dendrochronology and radiocarbon dating, supports an ealier date, 1628/7 B.C.E., for the eruption.)

taken from: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...era/thera.html
7. Here is an interesting history of the early/late date Exodus controversy which discusses the work of the archeologist Glueck in light of subsequent archeological finds: http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/oostjor.html

8. I also liked JP Holding's Scythians/exodus commentary below:

"What about all the bodies of the people who died during the Exodus?" What about them? The Scythians only buried their most important people (quite obviously, in huge mounds) and there must have been tons of them who weren't buried over the course of thousands of years, yet does anyone complain that we don't find their bodies today? It is interesting to note Tippett's comment that if it were not for these royal graves and the writings of Herodotus, the existence of the Scythians at their earliest stage "might never have been known at all." What then of the mere 40-year trail of the Exodus?

taken from: http://www.tektonics.org/af/exoduslogistics.html

Addendum:

I realize that David Rohl's supporters are quite orthodox and believe the Exodus occured as per the Bible (see: (http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html and http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/rohl-1.htm ).

 
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Old
  November 28th 2004 , 02:28 PM
 
Last edited by kendemyer : November 28th 2004 at 03:04 PM .  
 
 
Here is something I read about a late date Exodus that is not encouraging to a late date Exodus theory:


The Case Against an Exodus during Dynasty 19 or 20-



In seeking an archaeological sitz im leben for the Exodus narratives mainstream secular humanist scholarship understands that the archaeological picture reveals that Israel is settling the land in the Early Iron I period as described in the book of Judges, and therefore, if there was any kind of an Exodus, it ought to be dated to the 19th or 20 Egyptian Dynasties. However, Weinstein makes a penetrating observation about proposals for an Exodus in this time period :

"The only question that really matters is whether any (non-biblical) textual or archaeological materials indicate a major outflow of Asiatics from Egypt to Canaan at any point in the 19th or even early 20th Dynasty. And so far the answer to that question is no." (p.93, James Weinstein, "Exodus and Archaeological Reality," Ernest S. Friedichs & Leonard H. Lesko, Exodus : The Egyptian Evidence. Winona Lake, Indiana, Eisenbrauns, 1997, ISBN 1-57506-025-6)

taken from: http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusTi...telKhadim.html

Here is something else I read:


The content of the Exodus text, like the Sargon stories, can be checked for anachronisms. Is there anything that conflicts with a Late Bronze Age date (13th century B.C.)? On the other hand, are there features that suit that period well? Exodus is a long book with a variety of contents, so we shall look at only a few examples.


The name of the pharaoh who set the Israelites to work making bricks is not given, an omission modern scholars sometimes find very annoying, and a contrast with later references in the Biblical books of Kings, which mention Pharaohs Shishak and Necho. But it was normal for people in Egypt to refer simply to "the pharaoh" in the New Kingdom period, when the Exodus presumably occurred.(5)

The place names Ra'amses and Pithom in Egypt accord with the Late Bronze Age, when there was extensive construction in the Nile Delta. The city of Ra'amses, which is currently being excavated by Manfred Bietak, was a royal city in the Delta during the period of the Exodus, but was replaced by Tanis (Biblical Zoan) in the middle of the 12th century B.C. The other Exodus store city, Pithom, may be located at Tell er-Retabeh or, less likely, Tell el-Mashkuta. At Tell er-Retabeh building blocks have been found bearing the cartouche of Ramesses II (1279-1213 B.C.), thus confirming a Late Bronze occupation, so Tell er-Retabeh could well be Pi-Atum (Biblical Pithom). Tell el-Mashkuta also appears to have been occupied at this time, but it may be Succoth rather than Pithom.(6)

The desert Tabernacle is described as a portable prefabricated shrine. The structure has close Egyptian parallels in the second millennium B.C. and even earlier.(7) The Ark of the Covenant may be compared with the portable clothes chest found in the tomb of Tutankh-amun (1336-1327 B.C.), with its carrying poles slipped through metal rings on the base. Moreover, there is no reason why such an artifact could not be manufactured by the departing Israelites. The myth of "primitive Israel" in the wilderness of Sinai, unable to do more than pasture her flocks, should be dispelled. If we follow the Biblical record, the people who left Egypt were not all or always oppressed brickmakers. Some, like Bezalel (Exodus 35:30-36:2), had other skills, and earlier generations would have been exposed to Egyptian traditions and craftsmanship.

Worship of a single deity, not acknowledging any others, had been the policy of the "heretic" pharaoh Akhenaten in the 14th century B.C. That the Israelites adopted his doctrine seems unlikely, centered as it was on the figure of the king. Still, the appearance of Akhenaten's revolutionary cult warns us against assuming that another form of monotheism could not appear in the next century.(8)

taken from: http://fontes.lstc.edu/~rklein/Docum..._is_exodus.htm
I would also refcommend this article:

THE CONQUEST OF CANAAN: HOW AND WHEN? byGarry K. Brantley, M.A., M.Div. at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1994/r&r9410a.htm

 
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Old
  November 28th 2004 , 03:17 PM
 
Last edited by kendemyer : November 28th 2004 at 04:01 PM .  
 
 
Here is one other source that I found interesting:


Evidence for settlements

The second argument against the traditional date for the Exodus is based mainly on the work of archaeologist Nelson Glueck in the 1930s, which failed to find evidence of permanent settlements in the Transjordan and the Negev regions between 1900 and 1300 B.C. This region should have shown a sizable presence of Edomites, Ammonites and Moabites at that time, since the biblical account mentions their strong opposition to the Israelites.

However, more-recent excavations have shown many settlements in the area that Glueck did not find. Archaeologist John Bimson notes that "Glueck’s initial conclusions were definitely wrong (indeed he later retracted them), and it is disappointing to find scholars citing them as if they were still valid evidence. All too often the 13th century date for the Exodus has been perpetuated by the baseless repetition of outmoded views" (Biblical Archaeological Review, September-October 1987, p. 44).

Widespread destruction

The third argument used to date the Exodus to the 1200s B.C. is the archaeological evidence for the destruction of several Canaanite cities during this period. Scholars believe this took place when Joshua invaded and conquered Canaan.

Yet, if the traditional 1400s date for the Exodus is maintained, the archaeological evidence seems to fit much better, for This would have given the Israelites time to eventually take over much of the land during the 300 years of the judges. The Bible is clear that there were many cities the Israelites didn’t conquer during Joshua’s time or even during the time of the judges (Joshua 13:1; Judges 3:1-6). The archaeological record does support such a gradual process.

Dealing with the present findings, archaeologist Randall Price concludes: ". . . The signs of widespread destruction

at certain sites should not be considered as archaeological evidence against the biblical chronology and for a late date for the Conquest (by Joshua). These destructions better fit the period of the Judges, during which ongoing warfare was commonplace" (The Stones Cry Out, 1997, p. 147).

Dr. Merrill adds: ". . . Signs of major devastation in the period from 1400 to 1375 would be an acute embarrassment to the traditional view because the biblical witness is univocal that Israel was commanded to annihilate the Canaanite populations, but to spare the cities and towns in which they lived. And the record explicitly testifies that this mandate was faithfully carried out. The only exceptions were Jericho, Ai, and Hazor" (Kingdom of Priests, p. 73).

We find, then, that the archaeological evidence better fits the traditional date of the Exodus backed by the Bible.

Recent discoveries


Another argument that the Exodus never occurred is that there are no signs that the Israelites wandered in the Sinai desert for 40 years. However, we must remember that during the Exodus the Israelites were forced to live nomadic lives. No longer did they reside in villages with sturdy houses and artifacts that could have survived as evidence. Instead, in the wilderness environment every item had to be used to its fullest capacity and then, if possible, recycled. Also, the portable tent encampments during those 40 years would have left few or no traces that could be found 3,400 years later, especially in the shifting desert sands.

taken from: http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn039/exodus.html

Here is some information I found due to some material I read before regarding the Dream Inscription found at the Sphinx and this source talks about the Dream Inscription providing evidence of an early Exodus plus discusses some other material as well (the Wycliffe Bible Enycyclopedia provides some excellent early date Exodus material. I highly recommend it):


The Tenth Plague—which smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne (Ex.xii.29 J)—ought, however, to be capable of archaeological verification. Is there any record on the monuments that the eldest son of Amenhotep II came to an untimely end?

That he did so certainly seems to be implied by the curious Dream Inscription of Thothmes IV, Amenhotep's immediate successor, showing that Thothmes was not that sovereign's eldest son.

On an immense slab of red granite near the Sphinx at Gizeh it is recorded that Thothmes IV, while yet a youth, had fallen asleep under the famous monument, and dreamed a dream. In this the Sphinx appeared to him, startling him with a prophecy that one day he would live to be King of Egypt, and bidding him clear the sand away from her feet in token of his gratitude: which, on his accession, he did.



It is clear from this inscription that Thothmes' hopes of succession had been remote, which proves—since the law of primogeniture obtained in Egypt at the time—that he could not have been Amenhotep's eldest son. In other words, there is room for the explanation that the heir apparent died in the manner related in the Bible.



As to the historical situation in general, there is no reason to doubt the possibility of the Exodus occurring about the beginning of the reign of Amenhotep II. The records show that on the death of the puissant Thothmes III the whole of the outlying parts of the empire broke into revolt. At the instigation of the Mitanni in the far north a rebellion against Egyptian supremacy involved the whole of Syria and Palestine. Amenhotep soon moved against the confederates and crushed them, but it may well be that the distractions of this campaign early in his reign created a diversion of which Moses was not slow to make use.



Thus, though we have no explicit proof of the Exodus story outside the Bible, 'there is', in the words of T. E. Peet, 'yet nothing in the monumental evidence which throws doubt on the general credibility of the Biblical narrative. On the contrary, the picture presented by the latter agrees remarkably in general features as well as in detail with the picture presented by the monuments.'


THE WILDERNESS WANDERING

The duration of the Wilderness Period is fixed by one of the oldest written passages in the Bible as 'forty years'—/ led you forty years in the wilderness (Amos 210; cf. 525)—with which all other Biblical references agree. Forty may, of course, be no more than a round number, but to make the duration of the Wandering much more or much less than a generation would be to do violence to the firm tradition. We may therefore assign this interlude to the years 1447-1407 BC or thereabouts, commencing with the Exodus and ending at the latter date with the entry of Joshua into the Promised Land.



Archaeologically, in the nature of the case, one can expect little additional light upon the Biblical narrative of these forty years during which the Hebrews were in hiding from the long arm of Egypt. But we can at any rate reconstruct the imperial background against which they moved.



Amenhotep II survived the Exodus for twenty-seven years, being succeeded about 1420 BC by a younger son Thothmes IV, whose tomb was discovered by Carter in 1902. It was adorned with pictures of his warlike exploits, but of course makes no reference to the Hebrews then lurking in the wilderness. He was succeeded in 1411 by Amenhotep III, whose reign inaugurated one of the most brilliant epochs of Egyptian history. It was claimed that his empire extended from Nubia to Mesopotamia, and the great North Road through Palestine resounded to the tramp of his armies. Palestine itself was held in subjection to the Pharaoh by a system of vassal kings or chieftains, mostly Amorites, whose embattled fortresses (though weakened by previous Egyptian assault and spoliation) were held in fief to guard the roads from Bedouins and bandits, or if need be to hold the frontiers against more dangerous enemies until Egyptian reinforcements should arrive.



That the Egyptian supremacy in Palestine involved more than merely military occupation is clear from the innumerable remains of a peaceful and domestic type discovered by the excavations. Scarabs of the XVIIIth Dynasty are plentiful everywhere, thus dating the discoveries. [Scarabs: typically Egyptian ornaments or charms made in the shape of the sacred beetle of Egypt, and often containing the name of the reigning Pharaoh. They are thus the ancient Egyptian equivalent of date-stamps.] Other typical relics include 'Horus Eyes' (charms to avert the Evil Eye), statuettes of Nilotic deities such as Isis, Osiris, and Hathor with her lotus-flower, draught-boards and men, models of sacred cats, apes, and hippopotami, dolls, jewellery, and so on. There are many signs, too, that the Egyptian religion was not without its influence on the cults of Canaan, and that in more ways than one this influence was reciprocal.



It has frequently been suggested, indeed, that Canaanite influence may have penetrated to the Court of Egypt itself through Amenhotep's wife, Queen Thi, who is said (apparently without much proof) to have been of Semitic blood. It was this Queen Thi whose parents Yuaa and Thuaa were buried in the dazzling tomb discovered, with all its treasures still intact, by T. Davies in 1905. Her son Akhnaton's religious reforms, however, show no trace of Semitic influence, but are purely Egyptian in expression.



Under Amenhotep, Egypt attained a peak of wealth and splendour never touched before. A whole chapter might be written on his treasure-stores, his works of art, his magnificent temples and palaces, his towering monuments (of which the so-called Colossi of Memnon are so well known in picture), and his munificent endowment of the sacred Apis bulls.



While this mighty monarch was at the height of his power, it was clearly useless for any invader of his frontiers to expect success. We can well understand that Moses and Joshua, biding their time in the wilderness, must have felt that the opportunity for claiming the Promised Land was not yet.


THE ROUTE OF THE WANDERING
During these forty years (c. 1447-1407 BC), therefore, we are to picture Moses building up his people into a nation in the security of the wilderness. The wandering itself probably would not last very long: he would make as directly as possible for the well-watered camping-grounds by Sinai and Kadesh, there to settle down and develop his resources in peace. [The J narrative says nothing of detours, but makes the Israelites march direct from Egypt to Kadesh.]



The precise route of his journey thither will probably never be agreed. None of the place-names mentioned in the Biblical narrative have been certainly identified [Even the identification of the 'Red Sea' (Heb. the Sea of Reeds) is in doubt.], and excavations in the Sinaitic peninsula have failed to find any trace of the Hebrews.



Petrie's excavations at Serabit-el-Khadem, it is true, have proved the existence of Semitic quarrymen and turquoise-miners in the peninsula at this time. Quite unlike the free-roving people of Moses, they were clearly prisoners or slaves, held down to their work under Egyptian overlookers. Yet they were allowed a certain amount of religious freedom, as is shown by a temple dedicated to 'Hathor, Queen of the Turquoise', where the cult-objects are of distinctly Semitic type—altars of incense, sacred pillars, and the like. If our chronology is correct, this temple was actually in use at the time of the Exodus, and Marston makes the interesting suggestion [C. Marston, New Knowledge about the Old Testament (1933), p.137.] that it was used by Moses as a pretext for visiting the peninsula—let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God (Ex.v.3 J). Petrie here discovered, among the interesting inscriptions described in our first chapter, a group of characters which he read as MNSHEH [It is more likely to be Manasseh.] and which some have tried to identify with the name Moses.



It is unlikely, however, that the route of the Exodus ever descended south into the peninsula at all. The name 'Sinaitic', and the identification of the Jebel Musa (Mount of Moses) with Mount Sinai go no farther back than the third century of our era, while the 'dotted line' showing the 'journey of the Israelites' in most of our Scripture atlases has no real authority. As a matter of fact the peninsula was probably the last hiding-place that any one would choose who was anxious to escape from Egyptian pursuit. From the days of Senerkhet of the 1st Dynasty onwards, its mines of precious stones and metals had been treasured possessions of the Pharaohs: to this day the hills of 'Sinai' are strewn with the marks of Egyptian occupation. The whole country was known and charted; indeed 'a papyrus chart—the oldest map in the world—has been discovered which reveals how the Pharaoh marked out the route across the desert to the goldmines in that region' [Knight, Nile and Jordan, p.228 (1933 edit.).]. It is extremely unlikely, therefore, that the Israelites would dally long in a land so overrun by their enemies.



A very reasonable conjecture would place the Holy Mount of Sinai, or Horeb [Horeb and Sinai are probably only different names for the same mountain, Horeb perhaps being the more primitive (W. J. Phythian-Adams, The Call of Israel, 1934).], not in the peninsula, but east of the Gulf of Akaba in the volcanic region of northern Arabia. There are many indications in the oldest Biblical tradition that Sinai was a volcano (e.g. Ex.xix.18 E: Mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace). Now there are no volcanoes in the peninsula, but in Arabia there are several. It has been observed that 'the extensive volcanic region of Awaridh contains an isolated volcano called Tadra which appears to satisfy the requirements of the Biblical record concerning Sinai.... A number of Arab traditions still associate it with the exploits of Moses.' [Ibid.] Others suggest a more northerly volcanic area near Petra. From the crater of such a volcano at the height of its activity the light could be seen for many hundreds of miles, and it has been suggested that this was the pillar of fire by night that guided Moses in a direct line from the crossing of the Red Sea to the Sacred Mount.



The Land of Midian, which according to the Biblical narrative was in close contact with Sinai, must accordingly be located east of the Gulf of Akaba in Arabia, and not (as in the Scripture atlases) west of it in the peninsula. This fits in well with the Biblical narrative, where Midian is clearly in the neighbourhood of Moab and Edom—compare the very ancient Song of Deborah, for instance (Jdg.v.4-5): and is in accord with a statement in Ptolemy the Geographer, and with the Septuagint translators, which imply that Midian took its name from Maon [Maon-ites is translated by Midianites in LXX. For survey of evidence for this identification of Midian see Jeremias, op. cit.] (Minaea) in Arabia.



The importance of thus localizing Sinai and Midian lies in the fact that it brings us back once more to Arabia, the original motherland of the Semitic peoples and now (as it seems) the home of the Mosaic Law. Recent scholarship tends to lay far more stress on Arabian archaeology than formerly, and it is much to be desired that the country of Mohammed, so long almost closed to European explorers, should be more thoroughly excavated. Among the discoveries already made are the remarkable Minaean Inscriptions of south Arabia, dated by many scholars as early as the fifteenth century [But others regard them as contemporary with the Sabaean kingdom many centuries later. See Montgomery, Arabia and the Bible (1934).], in which are found many parallels to Hebrew religious beliefs and practices, going back perhaps to the days of Jethro, Moses' Midianite father-in-law. And connected (in all probability) with this Minaean civilization are the recently discovered Ras Shamra tablets which contain so many curious reminiscences of the Mosaic legislation.



We also make contact with Petra [A picturesque description of Petra with excellent photographs is in Hammerton's Wonders of the Past (1934), p.83.], that unique rock-hewn city of north Arabia immortalized by Burgon in the famous lines:

Match you this wonder save in Eastern clime,
A rose-red city half as old as time.



The existing temples and typically Canaanite High Places of Petra (called in the Bible Sela, the Rock, or Joktheel) are probably not older than Nabataean times, but the religious importance of the place may date much earlier. Conjecture would connect it with the home of the Kenites, perhaps the ancient shrine of Jethro himself, and the spot, which Balaam had in mind when he sang, Strong is thy dwelling place, and thy nest is set in the rock (Num.xxiv.21).



Phythian-Adams definitely identifies Kadesh (Kadesh-Barnea), where the Hebrews encamped on the eve of the Conquest, with this Petra, rather than with Ain Kadeis in the Negeb. In that district, he points out, there is no stream of any note, while Kadeis means simply a 'paddle', and has nothing to do with Kadesh. The very remarkable rivulet, on the other hand, which runs out of the solid rock through the narrow defile at Petra, he regards as the original of the Massah-Meribah episode (Ex.xvii.2-7 JE). The stream is still called the 'Brook of Moses' by the Arabs, and an adjoining hill is pointed out as the mount where Aaron died.



Such, perhaps, were the surroundings—beetling cliffs, volcanic mountains, fertile oases at their feet where encampment could be made, a district occupied by kindred tribes of no mean civilization nor unenlightened religion—in which Moses sojourned with the Midianites and where he afterwards prepared his people for their entry into Canaan. Here, if Hommel and his school are right, Moses may have spoken that dialect of Arabic which, fused with Canaanite, became the Hebrew tongue; may have learnt the script which evolved into the Hebrew alphabet; and may have renewed the half-forgotten faith of his forefathers under the influence of the mother religion of Arabia.

taken from: http://www.katapi.org.uk/BAndS/ChVI.htm#Title
Here is another article which says something interesting about the probable pharoh of the Exodus plus some other matters as well:


The Bible nowhere mentions the name of the pharaoh of the Exodus, but Bible students have always been curious as to who he was. No doubt, some Christians will be wary of trying to discover something the Bible has not clearly revealed; but in studying this question one can come away with his faith increased in the Bible as the unerring word of God. Although the Bible does not specifically name the pharaoh of the Exodus, enough data is supplied for us to be relatively sure who he was.

Admittedly, there are two schools of thought concerning the date of the Exodus (i.e., the early date and late date theories). Proponents of the late date theory (1290 B.C.) are clearly in the majority, but they reject clear Biblical statements with reference to the date of the Exodus. Therefore their arguments in favor of a particular pharaoh will not be considered in this article.

In I Kings 6:1 the Scriptures say: "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month that he began to build the house of the Lord." One can readily see that the times for both the Exodus and the beginning of the Temple have been specifically stated in God's Word. Scholars have identified the fourth year of Solomon's reign as 966 B.C. (Gleason, A Survey of Old Testamsnt Introduction, 1974, p. 223). Using this 966 B.C. date, we find that the Exodus took place in 1445 B.C. Now, if this information is correct, the Exodus occurred in the third year of the reign of the pharaoh Amenhotep II.

Before concluding that Amenhotep II was, indeed, the pharaoh of the Exodus, we will need to study further other evidence that can be presented. For instance, when comparing Exodus 7:7 with Acts 7:23, we learn that Moses was in Midian approximately forty years. Assuming the pharaohs mentioned in Exodus 1:8, 22 and 2:23 are all the same person, he would have had to reign for over forty years. Amenhotep's predecessor, Thutmose III, is the only pharaoh within the time specified in I Kings 6:1 who reigned long enough (54 years) to have been on the throne at the time of Moses' flight and to die shortly before his return to Egypt. This would make Thutmose III the pharaoh of the Oppression and Amenhotep II the pharaoh of the Exodus.

History tells us that for several years after 1445 B.C. Amenhotep II was unable to carry out any invasions or extensive military operations. This would seem like very strange behavior for a pharaoh who hoped to equal his father's record of no less than seventeen military campaigns in nineteen years. But this is exactly what one would expect from a pharaoh who had lost almost all his cavalry, chariotry, and army at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:23, 27-30).

Furthermore, we learn from the Dream Stela of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, that he was not the legitimate successor to the throne (J.B. Pritchard (ed.), Ancient Near-Eastern Texts, p. 449). This means that Thutmose IV was not the firstborn son, who would have been the legitimate heir. The firstborn son of Amenhotep II had evidently died prior to taking the throne of Egypt. This would agree with Exodus 12:29 which says the pharaoh's first-born son was killed during the Passover.

If the Exodus did take place in 1445 B.C., forty years of wilderness wandering would bring us to 1405 B.C. for the destruction of Jericho. Interestingly enough, John Garstang, who excavated the site of ancient Jericho (city "D" in his survey), came to the conclusion that the destruction of the city took place around 1400 B.C. (Garstang, The Story of Jericho, 1948, p. 122). He also concluded that the walls of the city toppled outward, which would compare favorably with Joshua 6:20.

Scholars have been fascinated by a revolutionary religious doctrine which developed shortly after 1445 B.C. that threatened to sweep away the theological dogmas of centuries. These scholars have credited Amenhotep IV, great grandson of Amenhotep II, with founding the religious concept of Monotheism (the idea that there is only one God). The cult of Aton set forth this idea to the Egyptian people and scholars have mistakenly credited this idea to the Egyptians. But it does not seem unusual to me that a people who had been so influenced by the one God of Moses would try to worship the God that had so convincingly defeated their gods. A continually increasing body of evidence indicates that this cult of Aton had its beginning in the reign of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, pharaoh of the Exodus.

Although the final verdict is not yet in, we can be reasonably sure that Amenhotep II was the pharaoh of the Exodus.

taken from: http://allanturner.com/pharaoh.html

 
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Old
  November 28th 2004 , 05:46 PM
 
 
 
 
If you go to www.Christianbook.com, and look under the DVD-video, there is a video or DVD that is called 'Exodus Revealed: Searching for the Red Sea Crossing' (just type in 'Exodux Revealed' in the search button)

I do not know if this fits in with what you are looking for concerning the time line but I found that I'ld like to see what they are talking about when they speak of found evidence of the children of Israel being in Israel.

 
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Old
  November 29th 2004 , 02:04 PM
 
In reply to this post by learning
Last edited by kendemyer : November 29th 2004 at 02:45 PM .  
 
 
TO: Learning

I have heard about that video but I have not seen it. Thank you for the source.

TO: ALL

I am going to give an article which gives archeological evidence for the prophet Balaam mentioned in the Torah and then give a quotation from the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia which further elaborates on this matter in relation to the Exodus.

First here is an article written by Bryant G. Wood entitled: "Is there any evidence to prove the existence of the prophet, Balaam?" at: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a014.html

Here is a quotation from that article:


"In an unprecedented discovery, an ancient text found at Deir Alla, Jordan, in 1967 tells about the activities of a prophet named Balaam. Could this be the Balaam of the Old Testament? The text makes it clear that it is. Three times in the first four lines he is referred to as "Balaam son of Beor," exactly as in the Bible...."

.....The Deir Alla text presents a problem to those who dismiss the Biblical account of the Exodus, Wilderness Wanderings and Conquest as legendary.... If Balaam was a real person, what about Balak, Moses, Joshua and all of the other persons named in the Biblical narrative? They must have been real as well, and the events described authentic.

taken from: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a014.html
Here is the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia article:


"In Num 22:5 we read that Balak "went messengers to summon Balaam son of Beor, at Pethor on the River, in the land of the sons of Amaw"(JerusB). Pethor is the later Hittite city of Pitru, S of Carchemish on the Euphrates. The statue of Idri-mi form Alakh, dated variously from 1450 to 1375 B.C., says he found sons of the land of 'Amau and sons of the land of Aleppo when he was in exile in Canaan (Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, #118, p. 16). Only around 1400 B.C. was the land of 'Amau independent and not under the rule of either the Egyptians or the Hittites. From the time of Suppiluminus (c. 1370 B.C. Carchemish dominated the area, first within the Hittite imperial system and later as an independent city-state."

source: The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1986, "The Exodus", p. 575, Moody Bible Press, Chicago

Here is something from the BBC:


The Admonitions of a Sage

Acquired by the University of Leiden in 1828 and catalogued as manuscript 344, the Papyrus Ipuwer 4 (translated by the Egyptologist A.H. Gardiner under the title The Admonitions of a Sage) is a 19th Dynasty copy of a much earlier document, almost certainly from the Middle Kingdom period. Opinions differ as to its import; some say that it's nothing but an old man's rant, or that the content is some sort of allegory, but others5 believe that it is nothing less than an Egyptian account of the Plagues, and of conditions in Egypt in their immediate aftermath. Whatever the truth, it has to be acknowledged that parts of the manuscript are highly suggestive.

2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood...men shrink from tasting..and thirst after water
2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

The Admonitions also contain a vital clue as to when these events happened.In the aftermath of disaster foreign invaders invaded the delta.

What has happened?...through it is to cause the Asiatics to come to know the condition of the land.

Admonitions 15:1

footnote 4: Probably the copyist, not the original author

footnote 5: Most notably, and controversially, Immanuel Velikovsky in his book Ages in Chaos

taken from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A1053262


Here is something that elaborates on the BBC article:


A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt [6]. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:

Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.

The river is blood.

That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!

Trees are destroyed.

No fruit or herbs are found...

Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

The land is not light [dark].

Velikovsky recognized this as an eyewitness account of the ten plagues. Since modern men are not supposed to believe in such things, it has been interpreted figuratively by most historians. The destruction of crops and livestock means an economic depression. The river being blood indicates a breakdown of law an order and a proliferation of violent crime. The lack of light stands for the lack of enlightened leadership. Of course, that's not what it says, but it is more palatable than the alternative, which is that the phenomena described by Ipuwer were literally true.

When the Bible tells us that Egypt would never be the same after the Exodus, it was no exaggeration. With invasions from all directions, virtually all subsequent kings of Egypt were of Ethiopian, Libyan or Asiatic descent. When Chazal tell us that King Solomon was able to marry Pharaoh's daughter despite the ban on marrying Egyptian converts until they have been Jewish for three generations because she was not of the original Egyptian nation, there is no reason to be surprised.

[6] A.H. Gardiner, Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage from a hieratic papyrus in Leiden (1909). Historians are almost unanimous in dating this papyrus to the very beginning of the Middle Kingdom. The events it describes, consequently, deal with the end of the Old Kingdom.

taken from: http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html

* This article was published in the Spring 1995 issue of Jewish Action, put out by the Union of Orthodox Rabbis
Here is an article on the Ipuwer Papyrus (the papyrus was discovered by someone named Anastasi in the area of Memphis, near the pyramids of Saqqara in Egypt. The museum of Leiden in the Netherlands obtained the papyrus in 1828):

http://www.konig.org/wc52.htm

 
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Old
  November 29th 2004 , 03:02 PM
 
Last edited by kendemyer : November 29th 2004 at 03:14 PM .  
 
 
Here is a article which provides commentary in regards to Admonitions of an Egyptian sage in regards to scholarship plus it gives the a full copy of the work:

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/africa/Ipuwer.html


Here is another article regarding the Ipuwer Papyrus which compares it to the Exodus:


Excerpt from Ages in Chaos, by Immanuel Velikovsky:

"It is not known under what circumstances the papyrus containing the words of Ipuwer was found. According to its first possessor (Anastasi), it was found in "Memphis", by which is probably meant the neighborhood of the pyramids of Saqqara. In 1828 the papyrus was acquired by the Museum of Leiden or Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in the Netherlands and is listed in the catalogue as Leiden 344.

The papyrus is written on both sides. The face (recto) and the back (verso) are differentiated by the direction of the fiber tissues; the story of Ipuwer is written on the face, on the back is a hymn to a deity. A facsimile copy of both texts was published by the authorities of the museum together with other Egyptian documents. The text of Ipuwer is now bolded into a book of seventeen pages, most of them containing fourteen lines of hieratic signs (a flowing writing used by the scribes, quite different from pictorial hieroglyphics). Of the first page only a third -- the left or last part of eleven lines -- is preserved; pages 9 to 16 are in veryy bad condition -- there are but a few lines at the top and bottom of the pages -- and of the seventeenth page only the beginning of the first two lines remains.

In 1909 the text, translated anew, was published by Alan H. Gardiner under the title, The Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage from a Hieratic Papyrus in Leiden. Gardiner argued that all the internal evidence of the text points to the historical character of the situation. Egypt was in distress; the social system had become disorganized; violence filled the land. Invaders preyed upon the defenceless population; the rich were stripped of everything and slept in the open, and the poor took their possessions. "It is no merely local distrubance that is here described, but a great and overwhelming national disaster."

Gardiner... interprets the text as though the words of a sage name Ipuwer were directed to some king, blaming him for inactivity which has brought confusion, insecurity, and suffering to the people. "The Almighty", to whom Ipuwer directs his words, is a customary appellation of great gods. Because the introductory passages of the papyrus, where the author and his listeners would be likely to be mentioned, are missing, the presence of the king listening to the sage is assumed on the basis of the preferred form of certain other literary examples of the Middle Kingdom. In accordance with this interpretation, the papyrus containing the words of Ipuwer is called, in the Gardiner edition, Admonitions of an Egyptian Sage.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Egypt in Upheaval

The Papyrus Ipuwer is not a collection of proverbs... or riddles; no more is it a literary prophecy... or an admonition concerning profound social changes. It is the Egyptian version of a great catastrophe.

The papyrus is a script of lamentations, a description of ruin and horror.

PAPYRUS 2:8 Forsooth, the land turns round as does a potter's wheel.

2:11 The towns are destroyed. Upper Egypt has become dry (wastes?).

3:13 All is ruin!

7:4 The residence is overturned in a minute.

4:2 ... Years of noise. There is no end to noise.

What do "noise" and "years of noise" denote? The translator wrote: "There is clearly some play upon the word hrw (noise) here, the point of which is to us obscure." Does it mean "earthquake" and "years of earthquake"? In Hebrew the word raash signifies "noise", "commotion", as well as "earthquake". Earthquakes are often accompanied by loud sounds, subterranean rumbling and roaring, and this acoustic phenomenon gives the name to the upheaval itself.

Apparently the shaking returned again and again, and the country was reduced to ruins, the state went into sudden decline, and life became unbearable.

Ipuwer says:

PAPYRUS 6:1 Oh, that the earth would cease from noise, and tumult (uproar) be no more.

The noise and the tumult were produced by the earth. The royal residence would be overthrown "in a minute" and left in ruins....

The papyrus of Ipuwer contains evidence of some natural cataclysm accompanied by earthquakes and bears witness to the appearance of things as they happened at that time.

I shall compare some passages from the Book of Exodus and from the papyrus. As, prior to the publication of Worlds in Collision and Ages in Chaos, no parallels had been drawn between the Bible and the text of the Papyrus Ipuwer, the translator of the papyrus could not have been influenced by a desire to make his translation resemble the biblical text.

PAPYRUS 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.

EXODUS 7:21 ... there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt.

This was the first plague.

PAPYRUS 2:10 The river is blood.

EXODUS 7:20 ... all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

This water was loathsome, and the people could not drink it.

PAPYRUS 2:10 Men shrink from tasting -- human beings, and thirst after water.

EXODUS 7:24 And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

The fish in the lakes and the river died, and worms, insects, and reptiles bred prolifically.

EXODUS 7:21 ... and the river stank.

PAPYRUS 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!

The destruction in the fields is related in these words:

EXODUS 9:25 ... and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.

PAPYRUS 4:14 Trees are destroyed.

6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found..

This portent was accompanied by consuming fire. Fire spread all over the land.

EXODUS 9:23-24 ... the fire ran along the ground.... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.

PAPYRUS 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.

The fire which consumed the land was not spread by human hand but fell from the skies.

By this torrent of destruction, according to Exodus,

EXODUS 9:31-32 ... the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was boiled. But the wheat and the rye were not smitten: for they were not grown up.

It was after the next plague that the fields became utterly barren. Like the Book of Exodus (9:31-32 and 10:15), the papyrus relates that no duty could be rendered to the crown for wheat and barley; and as in Exodus 7:21 ("And the fish that was in the river died"), there was no fish for the royal storehouse.

PAPYRUS 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong (by right) wheat and barley, geese and fish.

The fields were entirely devastated.

EXODUS 10:15 ... there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.

PAPYRUS 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which yesterday was seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.

The statement that the crops of the fields were destroyed in a single day ("which yesterday was seen") excludes drought, the usual cause of a bad harvest; only hail, fire, or locusts could have left the fields as though after "the cutting of flax". The plague is described in Psalms 105:34-35 in these words: "... the locusts came, and caterpillars, and that without number. And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground."

PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found... hunger.

The cattle were in a pitiful condition.

EXODUS 9:3 ... the hand of the Lord is upon the cattle which is in the field... there shall be a very grievous murrain.

PAPYRUS 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan....

Hail and fire made the frightened cattle flee.

EXODUS 9:19 .. gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

21 And he that regarded not the word of the Lord left his servants and his cattle in the field.

PAPYRUS 9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together. Each man fetches for himself those that are branded with his name.

The ninth plague, according to the Book of Exodus, covered Egypt with profound darkness.

EXODUS 10:22 ... and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

PAPYRUS 9:11 The land is not light....

"Not light" is in Egyptian equivalent to "without light" or "dark". But there is some question as to whether the two sentences are entirely parallel. The years of wandering in the desert are described as spent in gloom under a cover of thick clouds....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Last Night before the Exodus

According to the Book of Exodus, the last night the Israelites were in Egypt was a night in which death struck instantly and took victims from every Egyptian home. The death of so many in a single night, even at the same hour of midnight, cannot be explained by a pestilence, which would last more than a single hour. The story of the last plague does seem like a myth; it is a stranger in the sequence of the other plagues, which can be explained...

...Apparently we have before us the testimony of an Egyptian witness of the plagues.

On careful reading of the papyrus, it appeared that the slaves were still in Egypt when at least one great shock occurred, ruining houses and destroying life and fortune. It precipitated a general flight of the population from the cities, while the other plagues probably drove them from the country into the cities.

The biblical testimony was reread. It became evident that it had not neglected this most conspicuous event: it was the tenth plague.

In the papyrus it is said: "The residence is overturned in a minute." On a previous page it was stressed that only an earthquake could have overturned and ruined the royal residence in a minute. Sudden and simultaneous death could be inflicted on many....

EXODUS 12:30 And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt: for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

A great part of the people lost their lives in one violent shock. Houses were struck a furious blow.

EXODUS 12:27 [The Angel of the Lord] passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses.

The word nogaf for "smote" is used for a violent blow, e.g. for thrusting with his horns by an ox.

The residence of the king and the palaces of the rich were tossed to the ground, and with them the houses of the common people and the dungeons of captives.

EXODUS 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.

PAPYRUS 4:3, and 5:6 Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.

6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

PAPYRUS 6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

To it correspond Exodus 12:30:

... there was not a house where there was not one dead.

In Exodus 12:30 it is written:

... there was a great cry in Egypt.

To it corresponds the papyrus 3:14:

It is groaning that is throughout the land, mingled with lamentations.

The statues of the gods fell and broke in pieces: "this night... against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment" (Exodus 12:12).

A book by Artapanus, no longer extant, which quoted some unknown ancient source and which in its turn was quoted by Eusebius, tells of "hail and earthquake by night [of the last plague], so that those who fled from the earthquake were killed by the hail, and those who sought shelter from the hail were destroyed by the earthquake. And at that time all the houses fell in, and most of the temples."

The earth was equally pitiless towards the dead in their graves: the sepulchers opened, and the buried were disentombed.

PAPYRUS 4:4, also 6:14 Forsooth, those who were in the place of embalmment are laid on the high ground.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Revolt and Flight

The description of distrubances in the Papyrus Ipurew, when compared with the scriptural narrative, gives a strong impression that both sources relate the very same events. It is therefore only natural to look for mention of revolt among the population, of a flight of wretched slaves from this country visited by disaster, and of a cataclysm in which the pharaoh perished.

Although in the mutilated papyrus there is no explicit reference to the Israelites or their leaders, three facts are clearly described as consequences of the upheaval: the population revolted; the wretched or the poor men fled; the king perished under unusual circumstances....

PAPYRUS 4:2 Forsooth, great and small say: I wish I might die.

5:14f. Would that there might be an end of men, no conception, no birth! Oh, that the earth would cease from noise, and tumult be no more!

The escaped slaves hurried across the border of the country. By day a column of smoke went before them in the sky; by night it was a pillar of fire.

EXODUS 13:21 ... by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

PAPYRUS 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

The translator added this remark: "Here the 'fire' is regarded as something disastrous."

After the first manifestations of the protracted cataclysm the Egyptians tried to bring order into the land. They traced the route of the escaped slaves. The wanderers became "entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in" (Exodus 14:3). They turned to the sea, they stood at Pi-ha-Khiroth. "The Egyptians pursued after them. The Egyptians marched after them." A hurricane blew all the night and the sea fled.

In a great avalanche of water "the sea returned to his strength", and "the Egyptians fled against it". The sea engulfed the chariots and the horsemen, the pharoah and all his host.

The Papyrus Ipuwer (7:1-2) records only that the pharaoh was lost under unusual circumstances "that have never happened before". The Egyptian wrote his lamentations, and even in the broken lines they are perceptible:

... weep... the earth is... on every side... weep...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Excerpt from Ages in Chaos, by Immanuel Velikovsky (pages 18-31)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To this day, scholarly explanations for the collapse of the great Egyptian Empire, a civilization that burst on to History's stage... arrayed in wisdom beyond our Centuries... that one day was... and then suddenly was not... most explanations remain woefully inadequate.

taken from: http://www.geocities.com/regkeith/linkipuwer.htm


 
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Old
  November 30th 2004 , 02:42 AM
 
 
 
 
Here is what an additional source states about the Papyrus Ipuwer:



Is the `Papyrus Ipuwer' for real?

The Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt by Margaret Bunson says this:

"Admonitions of Ipuwer, a text recording the observations and adages of a sage who described conditions in Egypt at the end of the Old or the Middle Kingdom. The Admonitions offer a remarkably pessimistic view of Egyptian society and the state of affairs at the time, something not seen frequently in Egyptian writings. The text was discovered in the Papyrus Leiden 334, having been copied by 19th Dynasty scribes (c.1200 BCE; 6th century BC in revised view). The Admonitions address an unidentified king with vivid images of invading tribesmen from the desert wastes and other problems confronting Egypt at the time."

taken from: http://www.specialtyinterests.net/ipuwer.html

 
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Old
  December 1st 2004 , 11:24 PM
 
Last edited by kendemyer : December 2nd 2004 at 12:00 AM .  
 
 
Here is something very interesting I read about the topic of straw/bricks/Exodus/archaeology:


Another interesting archaeological discovery revolves around the captivity of Israel in the land of Egypt. Chapter five of the book of Exodus relates the story of the Egyptian oppression of the Israelite people. First, the Israelite people made their bricks with mortar and straw. Then they were required to gather their own stubble and, finally, they were forced to make their bricks without any straw at all. When Sir Flinders Petrie located the ancient cities of Pithom and Ramses (Ex. 1:8-11) , he made some startling discoveries. First, he observed that they were built with mortar. No other city from that time period was built with mortar. Secondly, he noticed that the bricks in the lower layers were made with stubble and in the upper layers they were made with no straw at all.

taken from: http://www.calvarychapel.com/fruita/Word%20of%20God.htm

Here is some additional commentary on this matter:


First you must understand that straw was important to make strong bricks, because it acted as a binder to reduce bricks just crumbling away. Also while bricks were more common in Mesopotamia than in Egypt, some cities of Egypt such as Pithom were built with brick. The tomb of an Egyptian noble named Rekhmere / Rek-mi-Re at Thebes in the 15th Century B.C. has a painting of slaves making bricks. A picture of this is in The New International Dictionary of the Bible p.174.

The ruins at Pithom show bricks with straw at the lowest level, bricks with only stubble at the intermediate level, and bricks with no fibrous material at the top level. Bricks varied from 13 by 13 by 3 ˝ inches (33 by 33 by 9 cm) to 16 by 8 by 6 inches (41 by 20 by 15 cm).

See also Can Archaeology Prove the Old Testament? p.30, the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary p.274-275, the Wycliffe Dictionary of Biblical Archaeology p.458-459 for more info.

taken from: http://www.biblequery.org/ex.htm


Here is something else I read about the giants mentioned in relation to the Canaan conquest:


Although the Hebrews were successful in their campaign to rid the promised land of all the giants, Joshua writes that some Anakim still survived in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. He apparently meant to say that they occupied a sizable territory around these chief cities of the Philistines. For when Sir Flinders Petrie, a British archaeologist, dug up Beth-Paleth some eighteen miles south of Gaza, he found artifacts indicating that it, too, had been inhabited by giants.28

28 Lee, Giant: The Pictorial History, p. 41.


taken from: http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Mi...Mid.East3.html



Also, here is some commentary I read about the Ipuwer Papyrus:


Let me throw in a couple points that you seem to be ignoring.

- Concerning the Ipuwer Papyrus, I can not come to agree with the possibility of it to be 12th dynasty work, period.

Why? For 3 reasons:

1. The Ipuwer Papyrus specifically states that the river WAS blood! This is an EXACT description of one of the plagues of Egypt.

2. These plagues happened according to scripture during a dynasty that utilized a large armies of chariots, of which the Bible says "600 chosen chariots + ALL the chariots of EGYPT!". We are talking LATE 18th DYNASTY HERE!

3. The fact that the Ipuwer Papyrus was an 19th dynasty composition is MORE COMPELLING PROOF than to merely speculate and say that it was from an earlier time during the First Intermediate Period.

Notice the word you missed:




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The official name of this document is Leiden Papyrus #344, after the Dutch museum where it currently resides. The style of writing suggests that it was a XIX dynasty composition, but it is probably a copy of one written much earlier.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Did you SEE it Sekhmet?! The word is "Probably", and there is NO PROOF for it whatsoever. It is MERE speculation, and that is why Dr. Moller brought it up, because he believes these scholars are wrong, as well as I. I don't agree with their speculations.

There are just too many similarities between the plagues of Egypt and the descriptions, and critics will continue to do all in their power to accuse us "fringe" historians of being wrong. Admitting that there is a relation here means to subscribe to biblical authenticity, and that is something critics and unbelievers are unwilling to do. Therefore, they will do anything possible to try and descredit the biblical narrative based on unproven speculations that are completely null and void of common sense.


taken from: http://www.kingtutone.com/board/view...tart=105&t=289




Re: the "Ramses objection" which alledgedly points a late Exodus and not a Mid 15th century century Exodus.


Ramses II's reign was from 1279 to 1213 B.C. (see: http://www.hantayo.org/BIBLE2.html ).

Pi-Ramses was a capital city built by Ramses II (see: http://www.hantayo.org/BIBLE2.html ).

Thus, late date Exodus supporters try to associate the city of Rameses mentioned in Exodus with Pi-Rameses.

However, here is what one website wrote and I think it makes a lot of sense:


Rameses was a store city in Moses' day, not a capital city.

The Pharaoh of Moses birth built Rameses and Pithom as "store cities" (Ex.1:11)

Ramses II built Pi-Ramses as his CAPITAL city, not a store city.


taken from: http://www.hantayo.org/BIBLE2.html



I thought this website gave a compelling case against the "Ramses objection" to a early date Exodus.


Store Cities of Pithom and Rameses

Exodus 1:11 states, "So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh" (NIV).

Professor Hans Goedicke believes that the Biblical city of Ra'amezez is incorrectly equated with Pi-Ramesses. Hershel Shanks writing about Goedicke's view states, "But the fact is that the store city of Ra'amezez cannot be identified with Pi-Ramesses, the Residence of the Ramessides. This identification is impossible phonetically, as has been demonstrated conclusively more than 15 years ago (D.B.Redford, "Exodus I, II", Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 13, pp. 408-413, 1963). Moreover, the Residence of the Ramessides is never denoted in Egyptian sources by the use of the royal name Ramesses alone. When the Residence of the Ramessides is referred to, the royal name is always connected with the Egyptian word pr, meaning house or residence: the reference is always in the form "Per Ramesses" (BAR, September/October 1981, p. 44).

Long before Per Ramesses, in the same area was Avaris the capital of the Hyksos kings and a border town when written in hieroglyphic transliteration is R3-mtny (Khatana) which is today called Tell ed-Dab'a and is being excavated by Manfred Bietak, Director of the Austrian Archaeological Institute in Cairo. The hieroglyphic R3-mtny can be projected back into Semitic transcription as Ramesen. Therefore Shanks concludes, "Biblical Ra'amezez can therefore almost certainly be identified with Tell el-Daba (Ibid.).

Pithom is most likely to be identified with Tell el-Rataba according to Goedicke (Ibid.)

taken from: http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm




Another websites states the following:


Early date supporters point out that the city Rameses has been located at other places and is by no means certain.9

9 Namely Quantir, Tell-er-Retebah, Tell-el-Masquta, and Pelusium....

taken from: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/ar...us_date.html#9




Here is what another website says about this issue that I thought was very compelling:



The City of Ramses in Exodus 1:11

In this first section we need to consider further the details of the exodus from Egypt, whether it was early (traditional date) or late (critical date). From there we may continue through LB II period to the settlement in the land.

We have already noted how it is not possible that Ramses II be the pharaoh of the exodus--if the biblical data is taken seriously and not simply dismissed. Since Exodus 1:11 is one of the proof texts for an exodus in a latter date, that is, 1290 B.C. in the time of Ramses II, we need to look at this material. The text says that the Israelites helped build treasure cities to the pharaoh, and one of them was named Ramses. How should this be understood? If that name is taken literally to refer to the reigning pharaoh, then the rest of the details in the chapters have to be taken literally too, and that is where things do not add up. If the city that the Israelites built in Exodus 1:11 was named for Ramses II, then there are real difficulties. First, the building of that city, which would take a good twenty years, comes before the birth of Moses, before the edict to kill the male children. If the exodus took place in 1290 or 1280, when Moses was 80 as the Bible says, then, he was born in 1370-1360 B.C. That would mean that the building of this city took place before 1360, or, as we know from Egyptian chronology, 45 years before the start of the 19th Dynasty and their first Ramesside king! Ramses would not have been around yet.

But if one argued he was the king, then he would be reigning while they built the city (20 years), while Moses grew up (40 years), while Moses was in Midian (40 years), and during the plagues (2 years) and afterward. Ramses did not reign for over a hundred years.

The only two solutions are: the city was built and existed before Ramses II, or the name is a modernization. The point is that those who argue for a late date for the exodus cannot argue against the early date interpretation without destroying their own argument, for they would have to discount the witness of the details in Exodus.

In short, Exodus 1:11 offers little proof for the late date of the exodus. The city was founded and named at least 70 years before the reign of Ramses II--if one assumes the late date. And according to Genesis 47:11 it was located in a region called “the land of Ramses”--a name that was used some 550 years before Ramses II came to the throne!

If it cannot be Ramses II who is the pharaoh of the exodus, we have to look for another candidate, one who came after a king who reigned for about least 40 years (the time Moses fled from him til he heard he was dead).

taken from: http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/bibarch6.htm


 
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Old
  December 5th 2004 , 04:22 PM
 
 
 
 
Here is some archaeological and textual information I read in my Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia:

The plagues of the flies and hail fell on all the land of Egypt but not on Goshen (Ex 8:22; 9:25-26). This suggests that while Goshen was on the edge of the land of Egypt, it was removed to some extent fro the territory where the native Egyptians were residing. This would have been true during the 18th Dynasty whose kings left no traces in the eastern most delta. But during the 19th Dynasty, when the capital was prbably at Quntir (see "The Route"), many of the principle building projects of Ramses II were in the Wadi Tumilat or Goshen region itself."

source: Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1986, "Exodus, The", page. 574, Moody Bible Press, Chicago
Also, according to the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia the following source provides a "penetrating analysis" of some archeological data that supports a early date exodus (I plan on obtaining this work. I believe cited Mr. Wood's work earlier):

Leon Wood, "Date of the Exodus," in J. B. Payne, ed., New Perspectives on
the Old Testament (Waco: Word Books, 1970), pp. 66-87

 
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Old
  December 5th 2004 , 05:23 PM
 
 
 
 
Hi Ken,

I must say that your uncritical acceptance of anything written on a website that you believe supports a 15th century Exodus is highly amusing.

All that these links do is to prove that you are not very familiar with the subject.

Rather than reply to every single blindly accepted claim, I think it would be good to actually find out how much YOU actually know about the subject.

To start with Ken, can you tell me if you have any *DIRECT* evidence of Israelites in Egypt during the 15th century BCE?

That is *DIRECT* evidence Ken, I trust that you know what that means.

Cheers.

Brian.

 
 
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Old
  December 5th 2004 , 09:37 PM
 
In reply to this post by BrianJ
Last edited by kendemyer : December 5th 2004 at 09:53 PM .  
 
 
TO: Brianj

I will reply to your post in this post or very soon in this thread. Before I do that, however, I wish to share some information to TWEB readers as I had set aside some time to do that and I had not expected your post at this time.


TO: ALL

Below is some information regarding Edom and Moab. After giving this information I will provide some commentary from the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia that I found illuminating which will clarify and refine matters discussed in the website citation below.

Here is my first citation:


The Conquest of Edom and Moab



The Status of Edom and Moab

A second argument given for the late date of the exodus concerns the status of Edom and Moab at the time of the exodus. Numbers 20:17-20 and Numbers 22:1,41 tell us that these two lands were populated during the period shortly after the exodus--that there were cities there.

But according to Nelson Glueck, the area was largely uninhabited between 1800 and 1300 B.C. (see The Other Side of the Jordan, published in 1940, pp. 125-147). But here is where the integrity of the archaeologists can and should be questioned: the archaeological work of Glueck sought to prove that the area was not inhabited until the 13th century in order to support the late date. This was not malicious; it was simply that a conclusion was posited and evidence was sought to support it (see C. Francisco, “The Exodus in its Historical Setting,” Southwestern Journal of Theology, 20 [1977]:12). So it comes as no surprise that Gluck found no evidence for cities and settlements--not from the way that he surveyed the area.

Merrill offers a simple explanation, which exposes the weakness of Glueck's work. The Bible says Moses wanted to pass through their lands on the King's Highway, a narrow mountain pass into and out of the region of the city of Petra. This pass could easily be defended by a few hundred well trained troops--and they need not be a sedentary people. Nomads or semi-nomads could well have occupied the area in such sufficient numbers that they prevented Israel from passing through. And the nature of their existence would clearly explain the lack of remains--they have tent cities. The point is that it is an argument from silence that Glueck offers; and, the “absence of remains of a settled people need not militate against the early date of the exodus if the people simply did not leave remains” (Eugene Merrill, Historical Survey of the Old Testament, p. 108).

Some scholars show an amazing inconsistency in the matter of the “argument from silence.” Kenneth Kitchen accepts Glueck's argument as the first major argument against the early date. But, when archaeological excavations found no material remains for even the 13th century at Dibon, the capital of Moab--which Numbers 21:30, 32:2, 34, 41-46 clearly mentions--he argues that just because nothing was found does not mean it did not exist! His reason? Ramses II has a wall relief depicting his defeat of Dibon in the land of Moab (see Kenneth Kitchen, The Bible in Its World, p. 77). So there is a text mentioning Dibon in Moab, but no archaeological evidence to confirm it, but it must have existed. Why then will they not do this with the Bible, which mentions these places, but has no archaeological evidence (yet!) to confirm it?

But how did Nelson Glueck study this vast territory. Gleason Archer gives the most devastating attack on Glueck's position, noting that Glueck's work was largely of the nature of surface exploration. It was not detailed excavation at all (A Survey of Old Testament Introduction, pp. 225-226).

What has come to light when more serious excavations have been undertaken is that in Amman numerous artifacts have been found in tombs (including black pricked ware, button-base vases, oil flasks, scarabs, and toggle pins) that date from about 1600 B.C. (see C. Lankester Harding, Antiquities of Jordan [1959]). Harding lists Middle Bronze Pottery found near Mount Nebo, and a 16th century tomb at Pella. There was a Late Bronze temple uncovered under a runway at the Amman airport in 1955 (CT, Dec. 22, 1971, p. 26). And then work at Heshbon has shown that the pottery was very different from that produced in the west bank of the Jordan. Glueck assumed the homogeneity of the pottery, and introduced confusion into the data.

The evidence from Moab and Edom has been trickling in, indicating there were indeed people there. But since they were nomadic, or semi-nomadic, one would not expect to find large settlements. But here is another question: If this region was unoccupied between 1800 and 1300 B.C., where then were the Moabites, Edomites, and Ammonites during that period?

taken from: http://www.christianleadershipcenter.org/bibarch6.htm


Here is the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia citation which I believe will elaborate and refine matters in order to provide more clarity:


Nelson Glueck has charged that no Edomite or Moabite kings would have been encountered by Moses in the Negeb or Transjordan before they built their border fortresses in the 13th cen. B.C. (The Other Side of the Jordan, New Haven:ASOR, 1940, pp. 146 f. ; Rivers in the the Desert, New York: Farrar, Straus & Cudahy, 1959, pp. 106, 109,114 f.). He did not find one site or potshered which could be ascribed to the Middle Bronze II or Late Bronze Ages (1900 -1250 B.C. ). His conclusions must now be modified, however.

A careful geographic study of the terms Edom (q.v.) and Mount Seir in Genesis to Judges reveals that Essau and his descendants lived in the Negeb W of the Arabah until after the time of Moses and Joshua. Not until the biblical records about Saul and David are the Edomites mentioned as residing in Transjordan (I Sam 14:47; II Samuel 8:12-14 , RSV; I Chr 18:11-13). Inscriptions from the reign of Thutmose III tell of his army warring in the Negeb (ANET[Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament], pp. 241, 243). Near ancient copper mines at Timnah (15 miles N of Elath, W side of Arabah) Beno Rothenberg excavated an Egyptian temple, dated by royal cartouches of Seti I (1318 -1304 B.C. ) and Rameses III (1198 -1166 ). Much local pottery at the temple site and nearby smelting camps show that tribes from Midian and the central Nebeb hill country were employed in the Egyptian mining operations (PEQ, C1 [1969], 57 ff. ). The Canaanite king of Arad, who dwelt in the Negeb and fought against Israel (Num 21:1, RSV evidently lived at Tell Malhata (seven and a half miles SW of Tell Arad) which has a fine well and strong Canaanite fortifications including a solid brick glacis (IEJ, XIV [1964], 145 ff.).

Furthermore, the terms "king" of Edom (Num 20:14) and various "cities" of Edomite kings (Gen 36:32, 35, 39), need not prove that the Edomites were yet a sedentary people dwelling in fortified towns. The five kings of Midian (Num 31:8) of Moses' day and the two kings of Midian in Gideons day (Jud 8: 5:12) were only nomadic chieftains. Kadesh-barnea had no permanent buildings and fortifications during Israel's wanderings, yet it is called "a city in the the uttermost of thy [i.e. Edom's ] border" (Num 20:16). It was only a tent city, like the "camps" (mahanim) of Num 13:19. It was God who forbade Israel to cross the territories of the Edomites and Moabites, not the superior strength of the these peoples who prevented it (Deut 2: 4-9).

Since WWII a number of tombs in the Amman-Mount Nebo region have yielded hundreds of Middle Bronze II amd Late Bronze I (1800 -1400) pottery vessels and scarabs. A Late Bronze Age temple with a large quantity of imported Cypriote and Mycenean pottery was discovered in 1955 at the airport of Amman (PEQ, XC [1958], 10-12; XCVIII [1966], 155-162; BA, XXXII [1969], 104 -116). Beginning excavations at Heshbon in 1968 unearthed some Late Bronze sherds. Thus it seems that there was some sedetary occupation in Transjordan around 1400 B.C.

The late 13th cen. B.C. destruction levels of Beitin (Bethel? ), Lachish, Tell el-Hesi (Eglon?), Tell Beit Mirsim (Debir?), and Hazor are attributed to the Israelite conquest of Josh 10-11 by such writers as G.E. Wright (Biblical Archeology, pp. 81-85). While the poorer style of houses above the levels of burning at these sites may or may not prove it was Joshua's army which destroyed the cities at that time. The tribes continued to subdue their territories long after Joshua's death. He burned only Jericho, Ai, and Hazor (Josh 6:24 ; 8:19, 11:13). Hebron and Debir had to be recaptured (15:13-17), for Joshua did not setttle or leave a garrisons in the cities he took but led his entire army back to Gilgal (10:43). He did not conduct siege warfare but rather a series of lightening-like raids against key Canaanite cities with the purpose of destroying the moreal and fighting ability of the inhabitants.....


source: Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1986, "Exodus, The", pages 573-574, Moody Bible Press, Chicago


Abbreviations used in the Wycliffe Citation:

PEQ = Palestine Exploration Quarterly

IEJ = Israel Exploration Journal

ANET = Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament. 1969. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

Here is what the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia said about Hazor:


On his northern campaign Joshua killed Jabin king of Hazor and set fire to the city (Josh 11: 10-11). Later, Israelites under Deborah and Barak destroyed another king of Canaan that reigned in Hazor, also named Jabin (Jud 4:2, 23,24). It is logical to associate the latest Caananite level (1a) of the huge lower city with Jabin II. It was destroyed by fire in the second half of the 13th century B.C. and never reoccupied. In Area K of the lower city a gate (provisionally Late Bronze I of level 2) was destroyed in a violent conflagration. If it is correctly dated, this burning from around 1400 B.C. may have resulted from Joshua's action; there is no intervening evidence of destruction before the end of the Canaanite occupation.

source: Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1986, "Exodus, The", page 576, Moody Bible Press, Chicago


In my first post I recommended reading the The Date of the Conquest by
Bruce K. Waltke in Westminster Theological Journal 52.2 (Fall 1990): 181-200. located here: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/ar...te_waltke.html



Here is what Mr. Waltke said about Hazor in the link directly above:


Regarding Hazor. Yadin associated the complete and final destruction of the Canaanite city, Stratum la (terminated ca. 1230) with the Israelite conquest. The reference in Judg 4:2, however, to Hazor as a Canaanite city in the opposition to Israel in the time of Barak, at least three or four generations after Joshua, precludes the late date and demands that one associate Joshua's conquest with one of the earlier destruction levels of that city. The only way around this argument is to suppose either that the biblical narrative at Judges 4 is flawed or that the archaeological evidence is incomplete.

Can an earlier destruction level be identified with Joshua? This writer attempted to identify it with the end of Stratum 2 by means of a burnt gate in Area K of the Lower City, but Bimson51 showed that his argument was fallacious and that the gate must be dismissed from the discussion. Stratum 2 (= LB I) emerged as one of great prosperity and culture, and according to Yadin52 "this is no doubt the Hazor of the Thutmosis III period." This stratum was completely destroyed before Stratum 1b (= LB II). Stratum 2 could fit Joshua's attack, but the excavators are vague about both the time and the nature of its destruction. Evidently there is no evidence of burning (contra Joshua 11), a lack that argues against the traditional early date but does not decisively refute it.

Stratum la (= LB III), this writer contended, should not be associated with Joshua but with Barak. Kitchen53 noted that Jabin II's main strength is "curiously" not in Hazor but with Sisera in Harosheth. The apparent weakness of Hazor at the time of Barak finds archaeological support in Stratum la for at that time the Lower City ceased to be fortified and its

[p.193]

temples were abandoned and apparently plundered, being rebuilt afterwards in a very poor and temporary form. According to Aharoni the last town was concentrated mainly on the Upper City. Yadin, however, explained that its meager remains may be due to erosion.54

52 Y. Yadin, Hazor: With a Chapter on Israelite Megiddo (London: Published for the British Academy by Oxford University Press, 1972)

54 Yadin, Hazor, 37.

taken from: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/ar...waltke.html#54

 
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Old
  December 5th 2004 , 10:31 PM
 
Last edited by Jason Ng : December 5th 2004 at 10:42 PM .  
 
 
Thanks Ken for all the early date Exodus information that you provided.

 
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Old
  December 6th 2004 , 12:28 AM
 
In reply to this post by Jason Ng
Last edited by kendemyer : December 6th 2004 at 12:52 AM .  
 
 
TO: Jason

Your welcome.


TO: ALL

Jericho/Bryant Wood

I gave a citation regard Jericho and the work of Mr. Bryant Wood regarding his work that was published in 1990 in the Biblical Archeological Review. Here are some sites which go into more depth:

Here is some information from Western Evangelical Seminary:

http://www.seminary.georgefox.edu/co...s/Jericho.html

Here are some other articles on this subject:

http://www.netours.com/2003/jericho-debate.htm

(the above link also has a great article on archeological dating I would recommend)

http://www.answersingenesis.org/crea...i2/jericho.asp


Although I would highly recommend looking at the 3 above links before reading the below excerpt from the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia said about Sir John Garstang's work in Jericho which was done in the 1930's.

Here is an excerpt from one of the above links showing why I believe reading ALL of the above 3 links will be helpful:


Through a critique of Kenyon’s methodology, Wood strongly asserted that the destruction of City IV was around the year 1400 B.C., once again lining up with the Biblical story found in Joshua chapters 3-6.

The scholarly "battle" over the interpretation of the data surrounding the destruction of City IV centers on four methodological issues.{14} The first area is the constantly evolving timetable of pottery from ancient Palestine. As more and more pottery is excavated, the ability of archaeologists to accurately date pieces found is enhanced. Wood cites from his investigation of Kenyon’s findings that she used the absence of Late Bronze Age Cypriote imported pottery to date the destruction of City IV at the end of the Middle Bronze Age.{15} (Cypriote pottery is exotic imported ware which, when present, demonstrates times of active commerce, and thus, inhabitation of the city.) Wood argues, however, that since the areas excavated were considered poor sections of town, one should not be surprised by the absence of these expensive types of pottery. What one should base one’s interpretations upon are local pottery used in everyday situations, Wood argues, and many examples of Late Bronze Age pottery were in fact discovered by Kenyon, though at the time she did not recognize them as such. Ironically, Wood points out that Garstang found a "considerable quantity of pottery decorated with red and black paint which appears to be imported Cypriot bichome ware, the type of pottery Kenyon was looking for and did not find!"{16} At the time, however, Garstang did not recognize the significance of this discovery, and the information was not singled out as important. In summary, using ceramic data Wood interprets the destruction of City IV as a Late Bronze Age occurrence, not in the Middle Bronze Age.

taken from: http://www.seminary.georgefox.edu/co...s/Jericho.html
Here is what the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia published in 1986 says about the work of Garstang's work which was done in the 1930's:


Significantly, except in connection with the isolated Middle Middle Building and two tombs which he attributes to the time of King Eglon (Jud 3:12-14), he found on the mound of Jericho next to no Mycenaen pottery. That began to enter Palestine c. 1400 B.C. Yet Pritchard at Tell es-Sa 'idiyeh and Franken at Deir Allah 30 miles N in the Jordan Valley each found sizable quantities of such ware (see the penetrating analysis of the Jericho evidence in Wood, "Date of the Exodus, "pp.69-73).

* The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia is referring to: Leon Wood, "Date of the Exodus," in J. B. Payne, ed., New Perspectives on the Old Testament (Waco: Word Books, 1970), pp. 66-87) which I mentioned earlier.

source: Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, 1986, "Exodus, The", page 575-576, Moody Bible Press, Chicago



TO: Brianj

You wrote:

I must say that your uncritical acceptance of anything written on a website that you believe supports a 15th century Exodus is highly amusing.

All that these links do is to prove that you are not very familiar with the subject.

Rather than reply to every single blindly accepted claim, I think it would be good to actually find out how much YOU actually know about the subject.
First of all, I cited both website and written material. If you had actually read what I posted you would have seen that.

Second, you are using illogical argumentation. You are using what logicians call an appeal to ridicule (see: http://www.opifex.cnchost.com/reason...toridicule.htm ) rather than say anything real substantive.

Next, you wrote:

To start with Ken, can you tell me if you have any *DIRECT* evidence of Israelites in Egypt during the 15th century BCE?
Seeing as you may have not read what I posted (see above) I suggest you actually read the material given through the thread if you have not done so already. Perhaps, then you will find some material that you missed before you made your post to the thread. I suggest you do the same regarding the material subsequent to your post.

Also, I would remind you that the topic of this thread is "What are the best sources for a early date Exodus". Thus, the debate parameters require you to show that there are perhaps better early date Exodus sources. Now if you have better sources by all means provide them! I would be most interested!

Lastly, I would remind you of what I wrote in the initial post:


I am not looking for sources or arguments that disagree with the focus of this thread. I am also not looking for comments indicating that I am a narrow or small minded person just because I want to concentrate on this view. I have reasons for believing the Exodus happened as per the Bible. For example, I believe the Dr. Macht study published by John Hopkins provides evidence that the Torah was divinely inspired (see: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27048 ).


By the way, brianj here is something I wrote regarding the Dr. Macht study:


Let me ask you this: "Do arabs eat camel meat?" Is camel meat kosher or non-kosher? What did Dr. Macht's study say about the toxicity of camel meat? Since you did not read the study camel meat is non kosher and toxic. The Jews and Arabs are both from ANE cultures yet whose dietary habits are validated by a John Hopkins study?

Next, do you think long term that eating more toxic foods or less toxic foods is more healthy? Would the effects be long term or short term likely? Do people keel over immediately from eating a more toxic camel meat or a ham sandwhich? Which is smarter, "Eating certain types of food for the short term or looking more at the long term? How did Moses get all the quadrupeds, fish, birds, etc correct out of the 80 or so tested by Macht but get zero wrong in terms of toxicity/non-toxicity and cleanness or uncleaness. Can you give me a very similar feat in ancient literature especially with something so subtle in its likely long term effects?

Next, can you give me a large body of literature from ancient times that has no harmful dietary, sanitational, or health practices. I would submit that the Egyptians put dung on wounds. I would submit that even the Journal of the American Medical Association likely endorsed medical practices as healthy but were later shown otherwise.

The Chinese are a very old culture. The Chinese will eat almost anything. I would readily admit that perhaps the Chinese had population pressure to eat anything. I am guessing a civilization living in the regions of the Middle East which can be arid might have a strong temptation to eat everything too though. And again, the benefits of eating these food and not eating these food would often seem long term. Plus Macht got a perfect score!


AT ANOTHER BOARD I WROTE THE FOLLOWING:


Let us ask some questions first:

What is it so reasonable about NEVER eating hares to an ancient Israeli?

(I realize that Macht tested rabbit which are somewhat similar to a hare I am guessing. I also realize that the rabbits tested toxic and that they are unclean according the Mosaic code!)

What is so reasonable about NEVER eating a camel to an ancient Israeli? (Macht tested camel )

What is so reasonable about NEVER eating bear meat to an ancient Israeli? (Macht tested bear although not Middle eastern bear)

What is so reasonable about NEVER eating fish (aqua life) that do not only have fins and scales? (Macht tested the fish [aqua life] catagory)

What is so reasonable about eating some bird meat like quail but NEVER eating the birds that were declared unclean some of which Macht tested? (Macht tested clean and unclean bird catagory)

I could go on but I would state that since X did not know these animal catagories were tested he/she cannot make any reasonable comments. I would also say I only gave some of the quadrupeds and birds that Macht tested.

Now I realize that hunting bear can be dangerous! I realize that if you eat a camel you cannot ride a camel! I realize that hares and rabbits are hard to catch! But I would say that X wholly failed to show the reasonableness and given that he/she never read the study I would not find this amazing. In short, X needs to show why it is reasonable to eat or not eat the 88 animals that were tested in the Macht study and also address why there appears to be a 100% corellation between non-toxicity and cleanness and also toxicity and uncleaness for ALL of the animals studied!

So I wish to reiterate that I wish only to have an extended dialogue with those who have read the Macht study.

I also do not think it is unreasonable for someone to look up a study before commenting on it if they wish to make informed and intelligent commentary.

I would also want to reiterate that X needs to read the study before making any significant conclusions regarding the study and any significance it may or may not have. I, however, believe the Macht study was sound and there is significance to the study. I await to hear any reasonable comments regarding the study by those who have read it.

I also have certain time constraints that preclude me from informing all the various board participants in depth about the study without them reading the study first.


I ALSO WROTE THIS AT ANOTHER BOARD

You, xxx , wrote:

"But what's the point? That only God can come up with good suggestions for healthy living?

I really don't see any suggestions/laws here that aren't better explained as the distillation of hard experience, distilled over the generations."

MY REPLY

Nowhere did I see you support your assertion. It seems reasonable that in order to support your assertion you will have to cite a comparable work to the Mosaic Law at that approximate period of time (ancient civilizations) that is filled with as much nutritional information(toxic foods, fat) , sanitary information, agricultural information(e.g. fallow periods in Mosaic code), environmental, and general health information(e.g. taking off a day to replenish human body) that was far ahead of its time. You never did that. You never approached doing this in any way. At the very least (and I do not think this would be sufficient), you could have offered a culture that reflected as much wisdom in the above regards. You never did this either. And I am giving you a lot of lattitude in that you have the entire earth to find such a work (or even ancient culture although I did not think this would be entirely sufficient) during this approximate time period (ancient civilizations). I realize that this will require scholarship and effort and thoughtful commentary. I do think, however, that this is the primary purpose of this board and that nothing less should be offered.

Lastly, I definitely do not want you and anyone else to "cherry pick" various ancient works or civilizations for information that was way ahead of its time. In other words, let us compare apples with apples and not apples with the entire fruit category or multiple fruit catagories.


Lastly, here is something I posted at another board:


Cecil Roth has published some figures showing how the Jews have remained healthier than their neighbours right down to modern times.19 One year when statistics were collected for the death rates among infants less than a year old in Czarist Russia, the rate for Jews was 13.2 per cent and for non-Jews 26.0 per cent. In Vienna it was 8.3 per cent for Jews, 16.1 per cent for non-Jews. In New York in 1915 it was 7.8 per cent for Jews, 10.5 per cent for non-Jews. "Even today [he wrote in 1956] the infant death rate in Israel is the lowest in the world."

19 C. Roth, The Jewish Contribution to Civilisation. Horovitz, London, 1956

taken from: http://www.godstruth.org/chap08#19

 
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Old
  December 6th 2004 , 01:28 AM
 
 
 
 
Hi Ken,

Do you have any *DIRECT* evidence that there were Israelites in Egypt during the 15th century BCE?

 
 
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  December 6th 2004 , 04:43 PM
 
In reply to this post by BrianJ
Last edited by kendemyer : December 6th 2004 at 05:27 PM .  
 
 
TO: ALL

I found some additional material regarding the archaelogist Bryant Woods investigations of Jericho.


Here are some resources I recommend:

"THE WALLS OF JERICHO" at: http://biblicalstudies.qldwide.net.a...f_jericho.html

"Has the biblical city and story of Jericho been verified?" at: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/jericho.html

"Jericho: Introduction to the Site" at: http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson...p/jericho.html

"Is Bryant Wood's chronology of Jericho valid?" at: http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/...bryantwood.php



TO Brianj:

You wrote:

Hi Ken,

Do you have any *DIRECT* evidence that there were Israelites in Egypt during the 15th century BCE?
Brianj, anyone who has read the threads material knows that you did not carefully read the threads material as evidenced by your last posts mistake. And given your last posts illogical and boorish argumentation, I did not expect an abatement to your rude behavior. I would suggest reading the threads contents and that will easily answer your question. It is also my hope that moderator intervention will not be necessary.

Sincerely,

Ken

 
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Old
  December 6th 2004 , 05:17 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by kendemyer
I am looking for the best sources that support a early date exodus which is the traditional view (a Jewish Exodus of 1446 B.C ). I am also looking for anti-late date Exodus arguments.
Greetings, Kendemyer,

First and foremost, I wish to state that I am not being derisive, rude, or a smart-alec with this response. I am honestly presenting the best information that I have.

Ken, to the best of my knowledge, the majority scholarship view of the Exodus is that it did not occur. At all. No date ... early or late ... is even discussed among archaeologists, and no one current in the archaeological field will attempt to present evidence for a Hebrew Exodus from Egypt in a peer-reviewed journal. Most scholars at this point feel that the Israelites grew as an indigenous Canaanite culture sometime just before 1000 BCE, and gradually (i.e. 150-200 years or so) assimilated the land of Canaan. No Patriarchal Age, no Exodus, no Conquest, no Age of the Judges--indeed, perhaps not even a United Monarchy, though the jury is still out on that.

Now, that being said, there has been a tremendous amount of material written in the past by people of various (and no) credentials in the fields of archaeology. Some of these people have sound, even tremendous, credentials in other fields: Velikovsky, for instance, was a brilliant theoretical psychiatrist, and in some respects was one of the pioneers in diagnosing epilepsy; while many of the authors you cite are reputable Biblical scholars or theologians. But frankly, the archaeology is simply not there.

Many of the finds and articles that you cite are using older sources, some dubiously at that. Some of the articles are ... questionable in the extreme: Velikovsky, for instance, believes that the Exodus Plagues can be accounted for by a collision between Earth and Venus, and we know that this is simply not the case. I can go through a few of the specifics if you wish, by way of example, but these views have been discussed and disregarded by wiser minds than my own.

Kendemyer, I know that this is not what you asked for, and I wish I could provide you with what you seek ... but I have a choice between giving you an honest answer, or a lie. Yes, I could have remained silent, but to some extent this is also a lie, by omission, and it troubled my conscience to do so. Yet I do apologize, again, for answering in a manner that will, I feel, not be satisfying.

Justin

 
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