I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts?

Michael

What is a "oneness follower"?

Oneness theology rejects the concept of the trinity, saying that Jesus is the entirity of God, and that the various names are just how He represents Himself in that setting.

Michael

Originally posted by themuzicman

I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts? Michael

Well the muzicman

Look at this verse

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Is Jesus the father? The answer is yes.

When you are refering to John5:31 He was refering to his flesh the one they were seeing at that time, when refering to the father it was the spirit the unseen one, untangible.
The Father (the Spirit) has sent the flesh of the father.
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Who brought salvation to this world? The answer is Jesus our Lord.

egad

Originally posted by themuzicman

I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts?

Michael

Don't into it, Michael

Originally posted by endy

Well the muzicman

Look at this verse

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Is Jesus the father? The answer is yes.

When you are refering to John5:31 He was refering to his flesh the one they were seeing at that time, when refering to the father it was the spirit the unseen one, untangible.
The Father (the Spirit) has sent the flesh of the father.
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Who brought salvation to this world? The answer is Jesus our Lord.

Ah, but this is consistent with trinitarian doctrine, whereas the verse in John is NOT consisent with oneness doctrine. have you no answer for the problem in John 5?

Michael

Actually, it is consistent. Jesus isn't referring to His own trustworthiness - He's referring to the law which requires two witnesses. His testimony alone would not be sufficient in a court of the time because two witnesses were required - but He then provides the second witness - God the Father. Jesus is, in a sense, actually affirming the Trinity - the two witnesses required by law are God the Father and God the Son, the First and Second Persons of the Trinity.

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'two witnesses ' " . Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2002. 11 Jan 2005. <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=two+witnesses&page=1>

I agree. However, it is a problem with oneness theology.

Michael

Originally posted by Teallaura

Actually, it is consistent. Jesus isn't referring to His own trustworthiness - He's referring to the law which requires two witnesses. His testimony alone would not be sufficient in a court of the time because two witnesses were required - but He then provides the second witness - God the Father. Jesus is, in a sense, actually affirming the Trinity - the two witnesses required by law are God the Father and God the Son, the First and Second Persons of the Trinity.

There is no indication of this in the quotes repeated in every gospel. Jesus Christ is describing in His own words the nature of his station and authority in relation to God. There is no reference whatsoever to the requirement of two or three witnesses in these quotes.

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'two witnesses ' " . Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2002. 11 Jan 2005. <http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=two+witnesses&page=1>

Totally irrelavent. This the OT law concerning judgement in cases of crime in courts.

Originally posted by themuzicman

Ah, but this is consistent with trinitarian doctrine, whereas the verse in John is NOT consisent with oneness doctrine. have you no answer for the problem in John 5?

Michael

As to trinitarian doctrine it seems that it was consistent in the sense they believe two bodies. THe Son is different apart from the Father. Not believeing One God which is Spirit manifested in the flesh. God is Spirit & the Son is the flesh. Spirit is unseen, untangible whereas the Flesh is seen & tangible. So as to the question you have arised

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

"Myself" mean The Flesh=the Son=The Lamb to the man they were seening
"That beareth witness of me" mean to God the father which is the Spirit.
So when he said He receives no testimony from man He pointing to the Spirit of God who is working & moving everything.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who is the Father the father is The Spirit. THe Spirit is the witness of the of the Flesh which the Son.

What about now? Is it consistent? Do we see Two bodies? NO NO. One body only.Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Originally posted by endy

As to trinitarian doctrine it seems that it was consistent in the sense they believe two bodies. THe Son is different apart from the Father. Not believeing One God which is Spirit manifested in the flesh. God is Spirit & the Son is the flesh. Spirit is unseen, untangible whereas the Flesh is seen & tangible. So as to the question you have arised

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

"Myself" mean The Flesh=the Son=The Lamb to the man they were seening
"That beareth witness of me" mean to God the father which is the Spirit.
So when he said He receives no testimony from man He pointing to the Spirit of God who is working & moving everything.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who is the Father the father is The Spirit. THe Spirit is the witness of the of the Flesh which the Son.

What about now? Is it consistent? Do we see Two bodies? NO NO. One body only.Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Your description is in someways confusing. You start talking about two bodies, and then say not, no One body only. Your statement that the son is different and appart from the father is okay. God is the spirit, okay. Jesus Christ was of course the Son of God the Messiah like Moses in the flesh, but not God incarnate, and distinctly He had no knowledge, power or authority, other than which he recieved through God as the Word and authority of God. Yes, God is doing everything and in total control.

Originally posted by shunyadragon

Your description is in someways confusing. You start talking about two bodies, and then say not, no One body only. Your statement that the son is different and appart from the father is okay. God is the spirit, okay. Jesus Christ was of course the Son of God the Messiah like Moses in the flesh, but not God incarnate, and distinctly He had no knowledge, power or authority, other than which he recieved through God as the Word and authority of God. Yes, God is doing everything and in total control.

It was not confusing. The spirit of yours & your flesh are not two bodies but one body. What I am trying to clear is this

the Spirit of Jesus =is the Father

Again the Flesh is the one dwells the Spirit. They are not two but one. Let us see this verse

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The image of man is God. Man has Spirit, soul & body. The Spirit of Jesus is the Father & the body of Jesus is the Son.


1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

How does God revealed them? Through his Spirit which Dwelled in Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I do have a question for shuny What is the Spirit of Christ. How many Spirit does it exist? 2 or 1 or 3. Meaning The Father is Spirit 1, Spirit of Christ 2, Holy ghost 3. Do we see 3 Spirits. The answer is no.
Eph4:4 there is only one Spirit not 3. & that is the Spirit of Christ

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Shunya "Jesus Christ was of course the Son of God the Messiah like Moses in the flesh,"

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

But Moses has been disgraced for Christ. How can the Christ & Moses be the same? Since moses honored Jesus here before becoming the Son.

Originally posted by endy

It was not confusing. The spirit of yours & your flesh are not two bodies but one body. What I am trying to clear is this

the Spirit of Jesus =is the Father

No your not. Clear as mud.

Again the Flesh is the one dwells the Spirit. They are not two but one. Let us see this verse

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The image of man is God. Man has Spirit, soul & body. The Spirit of Jesus is the Father & the body of Jesus is the Son.




1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

How does God revealed them? Through his Spirit which Dwelled in Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I do have a question for shuny What is the Spirit of Christ. How many Spirit does it exist? 2 or 1 or 3. Meaning The Father is Spirit 1, Spirit of Christ 2, Holy ghost 3. Do we see 3 Spirits. The answer is no.
Eph4:4 there is only one Spirit not 3. & that is the Spirit of Christ

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Still does not meet Christs own words in John chapter 5. According to Christ's own words. Christ was speaking for Christ, not some out of body experience.

the Spirit of Jesus = is the Father

is true as the Word, authority and power that spoke through Jesus, but Jesus Christ is not God.

Originally posted by shunyadragon

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Still does not meet Christs own words in John chapter 5. According to Christ's own words. Christ was speaking for Christ, not some out of body experience. is true as the Word, authority and power that spoke through Jesus, but Jesus Christ is not God.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Can you see these verses

the 1st it was refering Jesus himself will raise from dying by his power. No one needs to raise him up

2nd verse God has raised him up. How?

the answer is in verse 3 Rom 8:11
The Spirit of Jesus has raised the body.

So we can conclude that The Flesh of the Son is God`s Flesh. Yes. No other thing.
Question to shuny how Jesus be raised up by himself as well as by God? Did Jesus raised up two times? By himself & by the Spirit of God?