I believe that Jesus Christ is the SAME God as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that in some way, the Three Person of the Trinity are subordinate to each other functionally.

For example:

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

This verse above, written AFTER Jesus went back to the Father, states that Jesus is subordinate to God in function.

Of course, to say that this verse also says that Jesus is not God or is less than God would be wrong, as there are plenty of verses which attribute same worship to Jesus as to God the Father

Rev. 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(sacrifices or 'firstfruits' are given to the Lamb, pointing to His Divinity)

Also, some of the other more explicit verses teach that the Lamb (Jesus Christ) receives equal honor and glory as God the Father:

Rev. 7:10 They were shouting out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Now... what is my question? Well, I wanted to know whether there are verses that show that Jesus is NOT subordinate to Father in function. Are there any?

Am I mistaken in thinking that Jesus is the Eternally subordinate in function (not in essense) to God the Father? If so, where is my mistake?

Thanks and in Christ,
Vladimir

**7** say hey vladimir (have we met before?), peace in Christ.
from what i can see, i basically agree with your stance.
see more on this subject here:
http://www.tektonics.org/AOA.html
http://www.tektonics.org/PS_FS.html
also, i'll be debating a JW in the boxing ring over this very subject in the next few days.
peace.

Rev. 7:10 They were shouting out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Or even better - Rev5:13 - with it's use of the articles.

-

PS-

Is that *your* site in your profile?

-God bless-

Yesterday @ 08:56 PM post located here
Vladimir:

I believe that Jesus Christ is the SAME God as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that in some way, the Three Person of the Trinity are subordinate to each other functionally.

Jesus is not the same God as God, that is impossible, they are two different life forms. God the Father is not subordinate to anyone, including Christ.




For example:

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

This verse above, written AFTER Jesus went back to the Father, states that Jesus is subordinate to God in function.

Of course, to say that this verse also says that Jesus is not God or is less than God would be wrong, as there are plenty of verses which attribute same worship to Jesus as to God the Father



No it wouldnot be wrong, Jesus is less than God, he said it himself, the Father is greater than I. You need to study more.





Rev. 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from humanity as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(sacrifices or 'firstfruits' are given to the Lamb, pointing to His Divinity)

Also, some of the other more explicit verses teach that the Lamb (Jesus Christ) receives equal honor and glory as God the Father:

NO verse in the bible teachs that Jesus receives anything equal to God, produce them.


Rev. 7:10 They were shouting out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Now... what is my question? Well, I wanted to know whether there are verses that show that Jesus is NOT subordinate to Father in function. Are there any?

Nothing can possibly be listed here, they don't exist.

Am I mistaken in thinking that Jesus is the Eternally subordinate in function (not in essense) to God the Father? If so, where is my mistake?

You are not mistaken, but your understanding is faulty in many areas.

Thanks and in Christ,
Vladimir

Yesterday @ 10:21 PM post located here
phantaz sunlyk:

**7** say hey vladimir (have we met before?), peace in Christ.
from what i can see, i basically agree with your stance.
see more on this subject here:
http://www.tektonics.org/AOA.html
http://www.tektonics.org/PS_FS.html
also, i'll be debating a JW in the boxing ring over this very subject in the next few days.
peace.

Hi,

Nice to see you here. We did talk about this before... haven't we? :-)

But the question now is about whether Jesus ETERNALLY subordinate in function, rather than becoming functionally subordinate anytime God wants to create something/someone...

Thanks and look forward to your debate.

Do you have any materials I can show my church leaders? I think most people in my church are 'Incarnational Sonship' view holders.

In Christ's love,
VLadimir

**7** say hey Vladimir, good to see ya again.

But the question now is about whether Jesus ETERNALLY subordinate in function,

**8** i don't know what functions (i.e., what specific tasks) you could possibly be referring to vis-a-vis eternity.
but the thing to keep in mind is this: all function is based on procession. the article above on functional subordination has much to say about this in particular. you may also want to check section V-B in the following:
http://www.tektonics.org/filoque.html

Do you have any materials I can show my church leaders? I think most people in my church are 'Incarnational Sonship' view holders.

**8** it may well be worth asking them why they think that it was the Son (rather than the Father or Spirit) who just happened to be the one to have become incarnate at all.
any materials? Karl Rahner's _The Trinity_ is the first thing that comes to mind. Cathering Mowry LaCugna's _God For Us_ is also worth considering, though it is far more controversial than Rahner's work.
...and keep an eye on the upcoming debate for more...
all the best,
peace.

Jesus is not the same God as God, that is impossible, they are two different life forms. God the Father is not subordinate to anyone, including Christ.

First, you simply assert "that is impossible". I counter-assert that it is not. So now what is the argument?

Secondly, Trintarianism does not teach that the Father is ever subordinate to the Son.

Third, you are obviously promoting 'polytheism' (in denying Trintarianism) which is unbiblical as well. See - Deut. 4:35; 39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 14; 21-22; 46:9; John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25 etc.

No it would not be wrong, Jesus is less than God, he said it himself, the Father is greater than I. You need to study more.

You are confusing the economical Trinity with the Ontological Trinity. Christ is subordinate to the Father in 'function' as opposed to 'being'. Read Phil2:6 and note that Christ became a servant of God in humility. See John1:14; 17:5 etc. Secondly, you should note that Christ did not say that the Father was "better" then Him like Christ is said to be in contrast to the angels in Heb1.

NO verse in the bible teachs that Jesus receives anything equal to God, produce them.

I did. See my previous post. Read:

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and in the earth, and underneath the earth, and the things that are on the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

A.T. Robertson:

And to the Lamb (kai to¯i arnio¯i). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Rev_4:11 and the addition of to kratos (active power) in place of ischus (reserve of strength) in Rev_5:12.

Nothing can possibly be listed here, they don't exist.

A few statements of generalized equality, functional and otherwise. However, I won't take the time to expound upon them (now) other than simply listing them:

We are to have faith in the Son just as we are to have faith in the Father - Jn14:1
The Son raises the dead even as the Father raises the dead -Jn5:21
The Son is the final judge of all which is a divine perogative - Jn5:22,27..cf..Joel3:12
The Son has Life in Himself just as the Father - Jn5:26, 1Jn5:11
We are to honor ('timaw' - a fixed value) the Son just as we are the Father - Jn5:23
We are to believe in the Son for life just as we are to believe on the Father - Jn17:2-5

etc.

-God bless-

Yesterday @ 10:43 PM post located here
IronMetro:



First, you simply assert "that is impossible". I counter-assert that it is not. So now what is the argument?

Secondly, Trintarianism does not teach that the Father is ever subordinate to the Son.

Third, you are obviously promoting 'polytheism' (in denying Trintarianism) which is unbiblical as well. See - Deut. 4:35; 39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 14; 21-22; 46:9; John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25 etc.



You are confusing the economical Trinity with the Ontological Trinity. Christ is subordinate to the Father in 'function' as opposed to 'being'. Read Phil2:6 and note that Christ became a servant of God in humility. See John1:14; 17:5 etc. Secondly, you should note that Christ did not say that the Father was "better" then Him like Christ is said to be in contrast to the angels in Heb1.



I did. See my previous post. Read:

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and in the earth, and underneath the earth, and the things that are on the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

A.T. Robertson:

And to the Lamb (kai to¯i arnio¯i). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Rev_4:11 and the addition of to kratos (active power) in place of ischus (reserve of strength) in Rev_5:12.



A few statements of generalized equality, functional and otherwise. However, I won't take the time to expound upon them (now) other than simply listing them:

We are to have faith in the Son just as we are to have faith in the Father - Jn14:1
The Son raises the dead even as the Father raises the dead -Jn5:21
The Son is the final judge of all which is a divine perogative - Jn5:22,27..cf..Joel3:12
The Son has Life in Himself just as the Father - Jn5:26, 1Jn5:11
We are to honor ('timaw' - a fixed value) the Son just as we are the Father - Jn5:23
We are to believe in the Son for life just as we are to believe on the Father - Jn17:2-5

etc.

-God bless-

All good points, just wanted to add that there is also a verse that shows that Christ is eternal, without beginning of days or end of life.

Heb. 7:3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, he has neither beginning of days nor end of life but is like the son of God, and he remains a priest for all time.

Yesterday @ 10:43 PM post located here
IronMetro:



First, you simply assert "that is impossible". I counter-assert that it is not. So now what is the argument?

There is no arguement, believe as you wish.


Secondly, Trintarianism does not teach that the Father is ever subordinate to the Son.

Third, you are obviously promoting 'polytheism' (in denying Trintarianism) which is unbiblical as well. See - Deut. 4:35; 39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 14; 21-22; 46:9; John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25 etc.

I do not believe in poloytheism, nor anyother theism you care to list


You are confusing the economical Trinity with the Ontological Trinity. Christ is subordinate to the Father in 'function' as opposed to 'being'. Read Phil2:6 and note that Christ became a servant of God in humility. See John1:14; 17:5 etc. Secondly, you should note that Christ did not say that the Father was "better" then Him like Christ is said to be in contrast to the angels in Heb1.

I don't believe in any trinity, what they are called matters not to me.





I did. See my previous post. Read:

None of those scriptures assert Jesus as equal to God in power or position. Only in purpose. Trinitarians created this doctrine on their own. Your mind has accepted the creation, you cannot produce scripture that does not exist, you are proof humans hold to deception greater than scripture.






v 5:13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and in the earth, and underneath the earth, and the things that are on the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

A.T. Robertson:

And to the Lamb (kai to¯i arnio¯i). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Rev_4:11 and the addition of to kratos (active power) in place of ischus (reserve of strength) in Rev_5:12.



A few statements of generalized equality, functional and otherwise. However, I won't take the time to expound upon them (now) other than simply listing them:

We are to have faith in the Son just as we are to have faith in the Father - Jn14:1
The Son raises the dead even as the Father raises the dead -Jn5:21
The Son is the final judge of all which is a divine perogative - Jn5:22,27..cf..Joel3:12
The Son has Life in Himself just as the Father - Jn5:26, 1Jn5:11
We are to honor ('timaw' - a fixed value) the Son just as we are the Father - Jn5:23
We are to believe in the Son for life just as we are to believe on the Father - Jn17:2-5

etc.
As i have stated, none of these scriptures assert Jesus as more powerful than God. Jesus said my Father is greater than I, none of your imaginenations can eclipes that truth




-God bless-

I stated:

First, you simply assert "that is impossible". I counter-assert that it is not. So now what is the argument?

You replied:

There is no arguement, believe as you wish.

Perhaps I should have said "So now what is your argument". Point being, an argument from mere assertion fails to prove anything or carry the conversation in any direction.

I stated:

Secondly, Trintarianism does not teach that the Father is ever subordinate to the Son.

Third, you are obviously promoting 'polytheism' (in denying Trintarianism) which is unbiblical as well. See - Deut. 4:35; 39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 14; 21-22; 46:9; John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25 etc.

You replied:

I do not believe in poloytheism, nor anyother theism you care to list

So what if I listed "monotheism" (which I strongly hold)? I do not believe you are an atheist, so clarify if I am incorrect.

I probably took your statement here:

Jesus is not the same God as God, that is impossible, they are two different life forms. God the Father is not subordinate to anyone, including Christ.

..in the wrong way. By your statement that Jesus is not the same "God as God" I felt you were classifying Christ as "a god" (like the JWs do). Was I wrong or was I right? What exactly is your position. That will help me out quite a bit.

I stated:

You are confusing the economical Trinity with the Ontological Trinity. Christ is subordinate to the Father in 'function' as opposed to 'being'. Read Phil2:6 and note that Christ became a servant of God in humility. See John1:14; 17:5 etc. Secondly, you should note that Christ did not say that the Father was "better" then Him like Christ is said to be in contrast to the angels in Heb1.

You replied:

I don't believe in any trinity, what they are called matters not to me.

I was making reference to the two aspects of the one Trinity. Whether or not you believe in the 'Trinity' is irrelevant to the fact that your objection to the Trinity was misapplied. The economical being in reference to 'function' etc. whereas the ontological being in reference to "being".

I stated:

I did. See my previous post. Read:

You replied:

None of those scriptures assert Jesus as equal to God in power or position. Only in purpose. Trinitarians created this doctrine on their own. Your mind has accepted the creation, you cannot produce scripture that does not exist, you are proof humans hold to deception greater than scripture.

Christ is in the position of "Judge of all creation". Is this not a divine perogative as I demonstrated from scripture? I agree that the Son is dependant upon the Father just as the Father was dependant upon the Son to make Him our Savior to "..the ends of the earth". Could the Father have reconciled mankind to Himself w/o the Son? No. Christ laid down His life of "his own accord." In your view this makes the Father dependant upon one of His creatures.

Also..

I stated:

v 5:13 And every creature which is in Heaven, and in the earth, and underneath the earth, and the things that are on the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

A.T. Robertson:

And to the Lamb (kai to¯i arnio¯i). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Rev_4:11 and the addition of to kratos (active power) in place of ischus (reserve of strength) in Rev_5:12.

You replied:

A few statements of generalized equality, functional and otherwise.

I can't see how you can ignore the force of the above? If Christ is a mere creature, then the above is little more than raw idolatry. Note that the "honor, glory, blessing" etc. are given EQUALLY to the Father AND the Son. Would you give, for example, 'Moses' EQUAL praise as you would to the Father? One would hope not.

I stated:

However, I won't take the time to expound upon them (now) other than simply listing them:

We are to have faith in the Son just as we are to have faith in the Father - Jn14:1
The Son raises the dead even as the Father raises the dead -Jn5:21
The Son is the final judge of all which is a divine perogative - Jn5:22,27..cf..Joel3:12
The Son has Life in Himself just as the Father - Jn5:26, 1Jn5:11
We are to honor ('timaw' - a fixed value) the Son just as we are the Father - Jn5:23
We are to believe in the Son for life just as we are to believe on the Father - Jn17:2-5

etc.

You replied:

As i have stated, none of these scriptures assert Jesus as more powerful than God.

And there is not a single Trinitarian who believes that Christ is "more powerful" than God.

Jesus said my Father is greater than I, none of your imaginenations can eclipes that truth

I hold no desire to eclipse the above. I already believe this. In fact, I laid the process out for you in my last post. Jn1:14, 18..cf..Phil2:6..cf..Jn17:5 etc.

God bless you

Today @ 12:48 AM post located here
IronMetro:



Perhaps I should have said "So now what is your argument". Point being, an argument from mere assertion fails to prove anything or carry the conversation in any direction.

I would argue that the statement that "i and my Father are one", means Jesus is one person, and God is one person. There is only one God, and God the Father is that one God individually himself. Jesus is the son of God, there is only one Jesus. He is one, or a singular being. Is Jesus a God, most defintely. He is the reflection of his holy Father, whatever God is composed of, IF he has composition, Jesus is the exact same thing. Having no other means to describe this, i will use physical terms, but be aware of the contridition, they are spirit. Whatever is Gods genectic make up or cellular structure, Christ is the exact same composition. Jesus said "i proceed forth and came from the Father", "when you seen me, you have seen God", he is Gods "beggotten son", all these bear a striking semblence to describing an actual birth, it is highly possible God birthed Christ from his own inner being. God , being eternal, may have brought Christ from within himself, which is eternal inner substance, and given Christ protozoan, or outer self substaining independant life, stiil though because he was brought forth from eternal substance, he still therefore has no beginning because he was not created, he was birthed from eternal God. I totally reject any teaching that God and Jesus are the same exact being having some weird symbiosis.


So what if I listed "monotheism" (which I strongly hold)? I do not believe you are an atheist, so clarify if I am incorrect.


You are correct, i am not an atheist.

I probably took your statement here:



..in the wrong way. By your statement that Jesus is not the same "God as God" I felt you were classifying Christ as "a god" (like the JWs do). Was I wrong or was I right? What exactly is your position. That will help me out quite a bit.

I most defintely see Christ as a God. I do not see the position of sitting at the right hand of God , a place for anything other than a God.

I was making reference to the two aspects of the one Trinity. Whether or not you believe in the 'Trinity' is irrelevant to the fact that your objection to the Trinity was misapplied. The economical being in reference to 'function' etc. whereas the ontological being in reference to "being".



Christ is in the position of "Judge of all creation". Is this not a divine perogative as I demonstrated from scripture? I agree that the Son is dependant upon the Father just as the Father was dependant upon the Son to make Him our Savior to "..the ends of the earth". Could the Father have reconciled mankind to Himself w/o the Son? No. Christ laid down His life of "his own accord." In your view this makes the Father dependant upon one of His creatures.

Also..
I do not understand this reasoning. How you have deduced this is beyound me.


I can't see how you can ignore the force of the above? If Christ is a mere creature, then the above is little more than raw idolatry. Note that the "honor, glory, blessing" etc. are given EQUALLY to the Father AND the Son. Would you give, for example, 'Moses' EQUAL praise as you would to the Father? One would hope not.

Where in the world of reading did you see me write anything even close to calling Christ a creature?

And there is not a single Trinitarian who believes that Christ is "more powerful" than God.

That is good news.

I hold no desire to eclipse the above. I already believe this. In fact, I laid the process out for you in my last post. Jn1:14, 18..cf..Phil2:6..cf..Jn17:5 etc.

God bless you

His blessings on you also, according to his will

05-23-2003 @ 08:56 PM post located here
Vladimir:

Am I mistaken in thinking that Jesus is the Eternally subordinate in function (not in essense) to God the Father? If so, where is my mistake?

On my understanding of theology, this has been the historic orthdox Christology of the church. Not that this tradition necessarily makes it true, but in this particular case, I think you've summed up the Biblical teaching accurately.

To add into the Scriptures you cite regarding Jesus' functional subordinacy, there are the texts in John where Jesus says that He doesn't act on His own initiative, but only does what the Father says.

God bless
Jon

I'm sorry, mickiel. Usually "anti-Trinitarian" gives me the impression of 'JW', 'CD' or some other sect that believes that Christ is a created being. I tend to forget that 'modalists' and others who accept the full divinity/eternality of Christ are classed under the term as well.

Could you clarify your beliefs a little more for me? From what I've read as it is, I've certainly taken the wrong approach.

God bless you

Today @ 04:21 AM post located here
IronMetro:

I'm sorry, mickiel. Usually "anti-Trinitarian" gives me the impression of 'JW', 'CD' or some other sect that believes that Christ is a created being. I tend to forget that 'modalists' and others who accept the full divinity/eternality of Christ are classed under the term as well.

Could you clarify your beliefs a little more for me? From what I've read as it is, I've certainly taken the wrong approach.

God bless you

Christ is not created in my view, he is birthed. Look at John 1:18, Jesus is called a God, easy for me to believe, but he is IN THE BOSOM of the Father. Iron, dosen't that bears simbilance to human pregancy? In John 8:42, Jesus states very clearly he PROCEEDED FORTH AND CAME FROM GOD, still the simblance of birth. Remember his statement seeing him, you see God. I think Gods mind was once pregnant, he then gave birth to Christ, his only BEGOTTEN son, another referance to BIRTH. Birth is NOT creation, it is REPRODUCTION of the same.

Angels being different, they are created, not birthed. The glory of Gods plan for mankind is essential in that we are able to be "birthed also", or have an actual part of God inside of us, Gods own spirit, or sperm. Seems weird to suggest it as sperm, but i think exact. Jeus is the firstborn of this spermatic event of God. UT, Jesus is from the INSIDE of God-- God is eternal, his inner being has no beginning, Jesus is the spawn of that inside of God, that he is now sharing with us, or reality, therefore Jesus was not created. He is simply Gods child, and Gods mind is now pregnant again, but will have billions of children.

proof that the Nicene Creed should be placed alongside the Bible as a norm for Christian faith, alongside the Alexandrian Logos-Son Trinitarian Christology which constituted the context of its formulation.
ahhh ha ha