What do you think? Is there such a thing as an honest doubter? That is, is it possible that someone has seriously examined the evidence and decided that the evidence does not support Christianity? My username suggests that I believe there is such a thing.• Edited by a Moderator •

Well, every non-christian in this forum considers themselves honest doubters. Many christians don't believe them, some due to theological reasons, others because they can't imagine someone not believing as they do.

Welcome to the forums, I do hope not all your posts amount to an advertisment for your book

I honestly doubt it.

I see ya took up my invitation. Welcome aboard.

By the way, do you have enough copies yourself so that people don't have to wait weeks to get one?

I'm sorry- it seems there's some history here- care to fill the rest of us in?

Originally posted by EvoUK

I'm sorry- it seems there's some history here- care to fill the rest of us in?

Eh. why not.

DJ wrote me an email, what, about a week ago with the same basic info as his OP, also asking if I wanted to debate him. I said, "Until I know if we have something to debate about, I can't say, but I'm here on TWeb. How about a copy of your book?" He sez, "Buy it thus way" and I did.

It's second on my "read list" at the moment, right after one I've been dying to read on interpreting the NT in terms of client-patronage models.

Sounds neat.

Welcome, Doubting John. Any friend of JP's is welcome ... and usually quite suspect as well.

Justin

...who also considers himself a friend of JP's, and therefore also quite suspect....

J.P. Holding, what a pleasure to see you here. I'm new to this so it's difficult at first to get going. But don't you see that Christians will doubt an honest doubter, even though he says to the contrary? I might as well say there are no true believers, contrary to what they claim, right? What's sauce for the goose....
This is no different than people who will deny that a gay person can ever leave that sexual preference, or that someone can walk away from his or her salvation. They either never were that way to begin with, or they didn't really walk away from it at all.
Likewise with honest doubters, they either never seriously considered the evidence, or deep down inside they really do believe.
As a former minister, Christian professor and student of Dr. William Lane Craig, I did believe at one time. Now I am an honest doubter. What do you make of this?
But for there to exist even one honest doubter would be problematic for the Christian faith I think, although, correct me if I'm wrong. If there is even one honest doubter, then there will be an honest doubter in hell, right? So if this is possible, then God will cast people who were honest in their doubts to hell, and that would make God unfair, right? Well, which is it here with me now?

Originally posted by Doubting John

J.H. Holding, what a pleasure to see you here. I'm new to this so it's difficult at first to get going. But don't you see that Christians will doubt an honest doubter, even though he says to the contrary?

I'll be honest myself, DJ, and say I don't give a kazoo what Christians (or Skeptics, or anyone) will do in terms of questioning motives of others, because all I care about is what's presented. You say you're honest? Cool. But all I care about is whether you're informed....I don't care if you're Abe Lincoln or Richard Nixon. It doesn't break my leg or lighten my lunch either way....

As for others, I'll let them speak for themselves, wot?

J.P., I edited an earlier post of mine, which presents a dilemna for you. You may want to consider that dilemna. In the meantime, you asked whether or not someone is informed, not whether or not their motives are good. So, was I informed? Does three master's degrees and a year and a half in a PH.D. degree mean that I was informed enough? Informed? I think I was, and I am now, although I'm no scholar, and will probably never be one. How does one know whether or not he is informed enough? Do you know things that I don't know? Why of course you do. Do I? Yes. Who is better informed? Is that the issue? Well then, you are better informed than I, I'll even admit so. I have no problems with that. But I'll bet you there are people better informed than either of us on the Jewish Hollocaust who deny that it ever happened. So it really isn't about being informed then, either, is it. It's about being right, isn't it. A 60 year old man who has a 4th grade Bible education may be right, but just not that knowledgable about Christianity. But he's really uninformed, isn't he? So then, how does one know whether he or she is informed? How? I say I am. You say you are.

Originally posted by Doubting John

But for there to exist even one honest doubter would be problematic for the Christian faith I think, although, correct me if I'm wrong. If there is even one honest doubter, then there will be an honest doubter in hell, right? So if this is possible, then God will cast people who were honest in their doubts to hell, and that would make God unfair, right? Well, which is it here with me now?

It's not problematic if you hold to the idea that God decides what is and what is not fair, not us. Clearly it was "fair" for God to kill the firstborn son of every Egyptian family based on the stubborness of Pharoah, or to wipe out the entire human race, including children, babies, plants and animals at the time of Noah.

I would say that having honest doubters may be no greater a problem for the Christian faith than a host of other dichotomies that need to be considered.

(By the way, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post in this forum, as I am an atheist. If I've broken the rules, I apologize - the moderater can remove my post from the forum.)

Originally posted by Doubting John

J.P., I edited an earlier post of mine, which presents a dilemna for you. You may want to consider that dilemna. In the meantime, you asked whether or not someone is informed, not whether or not their motives are good. So, was I informed? Does three master's degrees and a year and a half in a PH.D. degree mean that I was informed enough? Informed? I think I was, and I am now, although I'm no scholar, and will probably never be one. How does one know whether or not he is informed enough? Do you know things that I don't know? Why of course you do. Do I? Yes. Who is better informed? Is that the issue? Well then, you are better informed than I, I'll even admit so. I have no problems with that. But I'll bet you there are people better informed than either of us on the Jewish Hollocaust who deny that it ever happened. So it really isn't about being informed then, either, is it. It's about being right, isn't it. A 60 year old man who has a 4th grade Bible education may be right, but just not that knowledgable about Christianity. But he's really uninformed, isn't he? So then, how does one know whether he or she is informed? How? I say I am. You say you are.

A fine response!

You let atheists in this web site? How appalling!! He or she disagrees with me and then agrees? Cool! This is fun. But is it a waste of time?

Originally posted by Doubting John

J.P., I edited an earlier post of mine, which presents a dilemna for you.

OK, I assume this is it?

This is no different than people who will deny that a gay person can ever leave that sexual preference, or that someone can walk away from his or her salvation.

Actually I don't buy the P in TULIP. I'm a 1.5 point Calvinist...

, I did believe at one time. Now I am an honest doubter. What do you make of this?

Nothing, until I read your book. I told you by email that I had reservations about your use of Spong as a source. Worst I could say of that particular is you're not well informed, but if you want a snap final judgment NOW, you ain't gettin' it.

But for there to exist even one honest doubter would be problematic for the Christian faith I think, although, correct me if I'm wrong.

Not sure how this is so.

If there is even one honest doubter, then there will be an honest doubter in hell, right?

Yeah, but since I say hell is correspondent to your level of your level of deserved shame, an honest doubter such as you describe would for me not be that bad off. I'd compare your worst possible fate to that of the android on the Star Trek episode What Are Little Girls Made Of? when he was left to fend for himself for gazillions of years.

You do realize that I rate hell in terms of an agonistic environment, right? Or have you not read any of my stuff yet?

So, was I informed?

I'll find out when I read your book, bud. Three masters' degree and a Ph D don't mean much if they're not in topics you're making judgments about and if you haven't looked in the right areas. Heck, you of all people ought to know how specialized Biblical studies is. Ph D's correct each other in the lit all the time. I have a Masters in library science but that doesn't guarantee me expertise in physics...but what are your degrees in, exactly? I haven't read it yet in your book of course...

How does one know whether or not he is informed enough?

As an information specialist this isn't a hard question for me, because I know how to gather and assemble data and when I've done enough work with the necessary sources per each issue. But I don't think its hard anyway, and even if it were, it sure isn't hard to tell when you are more informed that person X is.

So it really isn't about being informed then, either, is it. It's about being right, isn't it.

You don't get to be right without being informed...your hypothetical 60 year old man may be "right" about X....but if you started asking him to defend his position, you'd find out that being right won't help much, practically speaking, if you can't show that you are, against a wrong position...for your own sake and for that of others.

So then, how does one know whether he or she is informed?

We debate and find out. Sorry, but I don't find your epistemic nightmares particularly frightening....

Catch ya tomorrow. I need to go pick the Mrs. up.

I graduated from Great Lakes Bible College in 1977 with a B.R.E. degree ("Bachelor of Religious Studies"). Then I attended Lincoln Christian Seminary, Lincoln, IL, and graduated in 1982 with M.A. and M.Div. degrees, under the mentoring of Dr. James D. Strauss, with "Theology and Philosophy" majors. Then I attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and graduated in 1985 with a Th.M degree, under Dr. William Lane Craig, with a "Philosophy of Religion" major. At Trinity I also studied with Dr. Stuart Hackett, Dr. Kenneth Kantzer and Dr. Paul Feinberg. I also took classes at Marquette University in a Ph.D. program with a double major in "Philosophy and Ethics," but didn’t finish. At Marquette I studied with Dr. Ron Feenstra, Dr. Marc Greisbach, and Dr. Daniel MaGuire. I have taught extension classes for Lincoln Christian College, Lincoln, IL, and I taught for Great Lakes Christian College, Lansing, Michigan.

Anyway, I too must go for now. This was fun.

One more thing JP, You wrote: "You don't get to be right without being informed...your hypothetical 60 year old man may be "right" about X....but if you started asking him to defend his position, you'd find out that being right won't help much, practically speaking, if you can't show that you are, against a wrong position...for your own sake and for that of others."

I quote Spong not because he's an authoritative source, but because he communicates well. But as I consider what you just wrote above it puzzles me, for either you don't communicate very well, or you've just said something I have never heard an informed Christian say before. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, I reply. People are right about a lot of things which they don't or cannot defend too well. "practically speaking"? What is more practical than in being right and getting into heaven, even if one is not well informed? Even a child's faith is not an informed one.