Originally posted by Hidden Manna

Sorry DD, I forgot you are the only one that I know of that does not use the creeds even though you honor them. {gag}

Interesting. Does JP Holding use the Creeds? Does Gary DeMar use the creeds? Does Dan Trotter use the Creeds? Does Chori Seraiah? Does Keith Mathison? Do any of the thirty or more orthodox preterists on this very forum use the Creeds (and when I say use, I am of course meaning in the way it was represented here, as the primary or sole means of defense - I use them in the exact same way Seraiah does - as an appendix, in his book they are in the last chapter)..

Really HM, if I am the ONLY ONE, you should be able to answer why I have a whole webpage countering hyperpreterism and NONE of them use the Creeds in the way you suggest.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Seraiah's book you are aware of it aren't you? I mean you wouldn't be selling the faith for a mess of pottage and not even read the first full length book refuting it would you? Or if not read it be aware of it? It was all over the heretical sites when it came out. And it doesn't base the argument on the Creeds.

So now that your opponents have been misrepresented TWICE, and this is a common misrepresentation perpetrated by the hyper camp, do you now care to come clean??

This reminds me of that guy who came in here guns blasting, name of preterist1 or something like that and absolutely denied that any hypers deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and pretty much called the person who said it a liar, and when I proved that some do, a few on this very forum, and one of the columnists for a prominent heretical site... did he retract? No, he blustered in avoidance and took off.

Originally posted by InChristAlways

Hi DEE. Tradition? Egads, that is what Jesus was battling the jewish leaders about in the gospels.

I would like the readers to note that was not an answer to my question.

Yes I did bring up the creeds and I know you and others have not used the creeds in your defense, though they are in the confession of faith in mainstream orthodox christianity.
I apologize if it sounded like I was misrepresenting you or others though I did put "I think" at the end of that statement. Does that count?

Apology accepted. The "I think" didn't cure it because you have conceded that you knew I and others did not, so there was something you knew and you made it sound like you didn't know why people had that position. But you retracted, it's all good.

As far as the rest, your habit of continuing to pursue a debate I told you I was not going to do is inappropriate.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Interesting. Does JP Holding use the Creeds? Does Gary DeMar use the creeds? Does Dan Trotter use the Creeds? Does Chori Seraiah? Does Keith Mathison? Do any of the thirty or more orthodox preterists on this very forum use the Creeds (and when I say use, I am of course meaning in the way it was represented here, as the primary or sole means of defense - I use them in the exact same way Seraiah does - as an appendix, in his book they are in the last chapter)..

Really HM, if I am the ONLY ONE, you should be able to answer why I have a whole webpage countering hyperpreterism and NONE of them use the Creeds in the way you suggest.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Seraiah's book you are aware of it aren't you? I mean you wouldn't be selling the faith for a mess of pottage and not even read the first full length book refuting it would you? Or if not read it be aware of it? It was all over the heretical sites when it came out. And it doesn't base the argument on the Creeds.

So now that your opponents have been misrepresented TWICE, and this is a common misrepresentation perpetrated by the hyper camp, do you now care to come clean??

This reminds me of that guy who came in here guns blasting, name of preterist1 or something like that and absolutely denied that any hypers deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and pretty much called the person who said it a liar, and when I proved that some do, a few on this very forum, and one of the columnists for a prominent heretical site... did he retract? No, he blustered in avoidance and took off.

You have totally missed me point in hope of to make us look like we misrepresented you using the creeds.

To define what I meant is this: you twist scripture in order to line up with the creeds so that you will be in acceptance of the futuristic believers in the Church. You know and I know that when someone steps outside of the man made creeds that they are stamped and labeled hereitics and shuned just like the Pharisees did Jesus and the disciples.

You constently avoid debating but just stick around hoping to trap people who you say misrepresent what they say in order to discredit them and make them look like liars.

You have done a poor job because in the light of the truth you seem to be just like a modern day Pharisees, seeking to destroy the truth and lead others astay, in to believing a twisted form of preterism that is not preterism but hyper-futurism, because it denies that Jesus raised the dead from the body of Moses into the body of Christ.

Please do not respond to any of the above and lets get past the issue of the creedal thing, just answer whats below.

The main thing I wanted to know from PP's is where do you get the scriptures from that say Jesus will return physically and that people will be rapture. It seems to me that Partial Preterist already believed that Jesus returned spiritually in AD 70, but think that He is still to come physically but cannot prove it from scripture. That is because all the scriptures are used up with the spiritual coming in AD 70.

You say that it is not a one shot deal so show me from scripture where is a physical coming after AD 70 and there events where it speaks of everything in literal language. For example His coming with a sharp two edged sword coming out of His mouth cannot be used because that is symbolic and would by natural fit into His spiritual coming in AD 70 etc.

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

I would like the readers to note that was not an answer to my question.

Apology accepted. The "I think" didn't cure it because you have conceded that you knew I and others did not, so there was something you knew and you made it sound like you didn't know why people had that position. But you retracted, it's all good.

As far as the rest, your habit of continuing to pursue a debate I told you I was not going to do is inappropriate.

Hi DEE. I notice HM responded to you, but may I respectably ask you not participate in this thread unless it is to refute or discuss the Bible through a "Full Preterism" viewpoint.

And if your belief is that revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem, please acknowledge that also, as I and Hidden Manna have, so we can know where you stand biblically on that. We also have a forum for discussing full biblical fulfillment and being in the New Jerusalem today.

I did notice Judge brought this over from another thread which Yoshiyahu, a practicing jew/judaism, started, which asked 3 questions so I also will try to keep it on that topic.

The jews also say their messiah will accomplish everything in one generation I believe. Thanks.

Quote: Originally posted by Yoshiyahu

This is a question for FULL preterists - I.e. preterists who believe that the entire range of prophecies contained in the Bible have been fulfilled. (I.e. the ones considered heretics by other preterists and other christians, such as DDW)

1) What's to come?
2) What role does the bible play in our lives, other than getting "saved"?
) How do your beliefs affect your politics? (and vice versa)

Hi HM,

Originally posted by Hidden Manna

To define what I meant is this: you twist scripture in order to line up with the creeds so that you will be in acceptance of the futuristic believers in the Church. You know and I know that when someone steps outside of the man made creeds that they are stamped and labeled hereitics and shuned just like the Pharisees did Jesus and the disciples.

I've just been reading several full preterist websites; of note Hibbard's (a full perterist) Response to Ken Gentry's Analysis of the Full Preterist http://www.preterist.org/articles/g...rd_response.asp

Basically I found fragmented and selective scriptural argument. If you weigh the sites it appears that there is 85% opinion, 5% scripture and 10% rhetoric. I'm open minded on the subject, but what I found disappointing was that most scriptural citations are either completely irrelevent to the actual argument, significantly out of context or readily disputed within one or two versus of the cite.

While I've been aware of the idea of full preterism in the context of Isaiah and Daniel from a Jewish perspective; I hadn't even considered it from a "christian" perspective - especially considering that the most authorative scholars date John's Revelation (whether it be the apostle or the elder) from about 95AD, 25 years after the fall of Jerusalem - still I guess you could argue on the 2nd or even 3rd jewish rebellions that followed into the 2nd century but then crash goes 70AD.

To me: an interesting curiousity is that Islam still awaits Isa (Jesus) to return to judge the living and the dead.

Originally posted by Hidden Manna

You have totally missed me point in hope of to make us look like we misrepresented you using the creeds.

No, I have gotten the point quite well. Plus you already excluded me - now I am focusing on the misrepresentation of everyone else.

To define what I meant is this: you twist scripture in order to line up with the creeds so that you will be in acceptance of the futuristic believers in the Church.

Soooo, you now are presuming to tell me my motivations? Now that I have corrected you as not having a clue as to what I do, I expect you will not repeat that particular misrepresentation. Second, I have said this here on the forum to you and ICA, so it is kinda cagey for you to act like you don't know this, but I have said that if I EVER thought this heresy was true, I would be your guys' worst nightmare. Why? Because I would embrace wholeheartedly despite any Creeds BUT..... here is why I would be your worst nightmare, I wouldn't play the hypocritical game the hypers play by trying to be "accepted" as just another eschatological view. I would recognize that this would be a separate faith that needed the true Body. So, Mr. Pot, it is not I who is demonstrably yearning to be "accepted" - it is your group. I have a bit more moxy than that.

Oh also let me ask you - are you defaming Gary DeMar? Do you think he is twisting the Scriptures to a Creed?

You know and I know that when someone steps outside of the man made creeds that they are stamped and labeled hereitics and shuned just like the Pharisees did Jesus and the disciples.

Oh please. You cannot pull the emotional "ohhhhh ssee you are persecuting me like Christ was persecuted" for their is a tremendous logical flaw in that. What is it? IF MY perspective is right WE HAVE no choice but to put your doctrine out. The second logical flaw is that labelling something is always wrong. Poor Hymenaeus. Paul persecuted him the way that Jesus was persecuted. No???

You constently avoid debating ....

with hyperpreterists because I take the admonition of the Scripture seriously

shun profane and idle babblings for they will only increase to more ungodliness

That was in reference to Hymenaues. Oh what did the poor guy do to warrant such meanness????

Ohhhhhh he said the resurrection is past. Ohhh you say the resurrection is past. Paul calls that a profane and idle babble.

but just stick around hoping to trap people who you say misrepresent what they say in order to discredit them and make them look like liars.

I have proven my case on this thread and ICA was strong enough to apologize. I stick around to be the constant bur under the hyperpreterist saddle as they try to gain acceptability in the Church. That is my ONLY goal. If you guys would do the consistent and I daresay honourable thing, you would not try to pass your view off that way. If it was not for that, you would never hear from me.

You have done a poor job because in the light of the truth you seem to be just like a modern day Pharisees, seeking to destroy the truth and lead others astay, in to believing a twisted form of preterism that is not preterism but hyper-futurism, because it denies that Jesus raised the dead from the body of Moses into the body of Christ.

That is really funny - do you even know what a Pharisee is? Or is that just some random hurl, like hyper-futurist, that you throw out as a boogeyman? You are just showing ignorance. And I do believe Moses is in the Body of Christ - so don't presume to tell me what I believe if you are ignorant of it.

And as far as the rest, I don't debate hyperpreterist. I don't as a general rule debate any heresy... every once in a while I will do a Trinity thing. I have material on my site that answers your questions. I would have hoped that you had actually researched the issue before eschatologically apostasizing.

Originally posted by InChristAlways

Hi DEE. I notice HM responded to you, but may I respectably ask you not participate in this thread unless it is to refute or discuss the Bible through a "Full Preterism" viewpoint.

First this isn't your thread. Second, I have refuted its legitimacy to the orthodox which is completely pertinent to the topic. And last, if HM would stop misrepresenting me or others I would not have even have ever posted. You have already apologized - I am waiting to see if HM has that courage.

While I've been aware of the idea of full preterism in the context of Isaiah and Daniel from a Jewish perspective; I hadn't even considered it from a "christian" perspective - especially considering that the most authorative scholars date John's Revelation (whether it be the apostle or the elder) from about 95AD, 25 years after the fall of Jerusalem - still I guess you could argue on the 2nd or even 3rd jewish rebellions that followed into the 2nd century but then crash goes 70AD.

To me: an interesting curiousity is that Islam still awaits Isa (Jesus) to return to judge the living and the dead.

Hi Apostoli. Thanks for the post. We do not concern ourselves with when or even who wrote revelation, as that is irrelevant. The Flood of Noah was written after the fact and the NT was written after Jesus preached and ascended.
What is revelation representing biblically, symbolically, and spiritually? I don't want to get off the topic of the 3 questions asked so maybe we can start a seperate topic on discussing the full scope of biblical preterism.

Hosea 10:8 Also the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, Shall be destroyed. The thorn and thistle shall grow on their altars; They shall say to the mountains, "Cover us!" And to the hills, "Fall on us!"

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars,........... For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Reve 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Revelation 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast[SIN?], and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.

Originally posted by apostoli

To me: an interesting curiousity is that Islam still awaits Isa (Jesus) to return to judge the living and the dead.

What on earth does Islam have to do with anything?

If Islam is true, Christianity is utterly invalidated. They are explicitly mutually exclusive. So, who cares what Islam says about Jesus returning or not?

Apostoli

To me: an interesting curiousity is that Islam still awaits Isa (Jesus) to return to judge the living and the dead.

Originally posted by RightIdea

What on earth does Islam have to do with anything?

If Islam is true, Christianity is utterly invalidated. They are explicitly mutually exclusive. So, who cares what Islam says about Jesus returning or not?

Hi RI. Most of the arab/semite people are actually very religious, but just as some that call themselves christians, there are bad apples in the barrel sometimes.
We could say the same thing about those who call themselves jews[Judah/Judaism], who are still awaiting on their own messiah, correct? And no, I am not anti-jewish or anti-semetic as God judges His people, not me. Blessings.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars,........... For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

Interesting. Does JP Holding use the Creeds? Does Gary DeMar use the creeds? Does Dan Trotter use the Creeds? Does Chori Seraiah? Does Keith Mathison? Do any of the thirty or more orthodox preterists on this very forum use the Creeds (and when I say use, I am of course meaning in the way it was represented here, as the primary or sole means of defense - I use them in the exact same way Seraiah does - as an appendix, in his book they are in the last chapter)..

Really HM, if I am the ONLY ONE, you should be able to answer why I have a whole webpage countering hyperpreterism and NONE of them use the Creeds in the way you suggest.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Seraiah's book you are aware of it aren't you? I mean you wouldn't be selling the faith for a mess of pottage and not even read the first full length book refuting it would you? Or if not read it be aware of it? It was all over the heretical sites when it came out. And it doesn't base the argument on the Creeds.

So now that your opponents have been misrepresented TWICE, and this is a common misrepresentation perpetrated by the hyper camp, do you now care to come clean??

This reminds me of that guy who came in here guns blasting, name of preterist1 or something like that and absolutely denied that any hypers deny the bodily resurrection of Christ and pretty much called the person who said it a liar, and when I proved that some do, a few on this very forum, and one of the columnists for a prominent heretical site... did he retract? No, he blustered in avoidance and took off.

BTW Dee Dee I did not read Seraiah's book nor have I read much or any of these other peoples stuff because I have very little time to read "eye strian migraines". But I have been blessed to have read enough to know the difference and that complete preterism is the truth.

Hi ICA,

Originally posted by InChristAlways

I don't want to get off the topic of the 3 questions asked so maybe we can start a seperate topic on discussing the full scope of biblical preterism.

Fair enough! Preterism is something I have never concerned myself with considering.

As you wished: getting back to subject "1) What's to come?"

Originally posted by InChristAlways

Thanks for the post. We do not concern ourselves with when or even who wrote revelation, as that is irrelevant. The Flood of Noah was written after the fact and the whole bible was written after Jesus preached and ascended. What is revelation representing, both biblically, symbolically, and spiritually?

If I understand you correctly: Revelation is to be viewed as a history lesson as opposed to a prophetic vision or alternatively as a mystical revelation of spiritual mystery. If either then the bible is irrelevent to the primary question of this first post in this thread "What's to come?"

One of the many unisons of Judaism, Christianity and Isam is that at sometime the One God will reinstate a paradise on earth and all mankind will live in the peace of his kingdom. As I understand full preterism this is to be understood in a spritual sense and was effected in 70AD. However, as I watch the news I see none of the final prophesies of the fulfilled.

So to my mind the kingdom on God whilst in progress, from the ascension of Christ, is yet to take control over the earth. The organisation of old (man rule) is still in role.

Originally posted by InChristAlways

Hi RI. We could say the same thing about those who call themselves jews[Judah/Judaism], who are still awaiting on their own messiah, correct? And no, I am not anti-jewish or anti-semetic as God judges His people, not me. Blessings.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars,........... For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Not the same at all.

Today's Judaism is (generally speaking) rabbinical Judaism. Real Judaism is what you and I would call biblical Judaism, which is entirely valid. So, Judaism, in and of itself, is not explicitly contradictory to Christianity.

There are New Age cults that call Jesus a "Master," who say he was a Buddhist monk, and all kinds of other things. Shall we consider what they say about Him, too? Of course not. What they say is totally irrelevant.

What Judaism says about Jesus is not irrelevant, because their scripture points toward Christ, even if they refuse to recognize that. (With the exception of Messianics, of course. Remember, not all Jews reject Christ.)

Originally posted by apostoli

Hi ICA,


Fair enough! Preterism is something I have never concerned myself with considering.

As you wished: getting back to subject "1) What's to come?"


If I understand you correctly: Revelation is to be viewed as a history lesson as opposed to a prophetic vision or alternatively as a mystical revelation of spiritual mystery. If either then the bible is irrelevent to the primary question of this first post in this thread "What's to come?"

One of the many unisons of Judaism, Christianity and Isam is that at sometime the One God will reinstate a paradise on earth and all mankind will live in the peace of his kingdom. As I understand full preterism this is to be understood in a spritual sense and was effected in 70AD. However, as I watch the news I see none of the final prophesies of the fulfilled.

So to my mind the kingdom on God whilst in progress, from the ascension of Christ, is yet to take control over the earth. The organisation of old (man rule) is still in role.

Hi Apostoli. The message in revelation concerns those believers who OVERCOME. What about those believers who have died but have not reached the perfection such as the virgin "Firstfruits" in revelation? This is a more spiritual application of revelation, such as the 2 witnesses resurrected and the first resurrection. This is what interest me about the Bible itself.

How many followers of Jesus and Paul "overcame" before the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century? If this is future, how many will be able to say they are without "fault" or had overcome when standing in front of God? Pretty fascinating to me.

Reve 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes


Reve 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw [something] like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark [and]

Originally posted by RightIdea

What on earth does Islam have to do with anything?

If Islam is true, Christianity is utterly invalidated. They are explicitly mutually exclusive. So, who cares what Islam says about Jesus returning or not?

Hi RI,

The Jews, Christianity and Islam share a common thread - Abraham. To Islam Isa (Jesus) is a prophet, possibly greater than Mohamad, who according to the Koran will come again to judge the living and the dead. Islam arose about 6AD and is a composite of Christian, Jewish and possibly Gnostic beliefs.

My point is that preterism is a modern distortion of prophetic beliefs held by the church for the first upteen centuries and passed down to Islam and 18/19th century milleniumist. My observation is: preterism is a philosophy of the 20th century comparable to marxist theology.

Hi ICA,

I'm not entirely sure where you are trying to lead me. You know how I work ;-)

I need to re-read Rev and contemplate your remarks. It may take a time, but I will come back with questions in the next few days.

Originally posted by InChristAlways

Hi Apostoli. The message in revelation concerns those believers who OVERCOME. What about those believers who have died but have not reached the perfection such as the virgin "Firstfruits" in revelation? This is a more spiritual application of revelation, such as the 2 witnesses resurrected and the first resurrection. This is what interest me about the Bible itself.

Reve 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes


Reve 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw [something] like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark [and]