I'm kinda divided between historical pre-mill and a-mill as they both have understand different things better than others... but...

Is the Millenium literal, and why? And to a lesser degree, why should a whole system be built around 1 verse in a apocolyptic book?

Originally posted by La Scala Boy

I'm kinda divided between historical pre-mill and a-mill as they both have understand different things better than others... but...

Is the Millenium literal, and why? And to a lesser degree, why should a whole system be built around 1 verse in a apocolyptic book?

Rest asurred, when the world again see Christ, it will see Him as He is.

The whole earth much less some fabled temple cannot contain His majesty. This One who humbles Himself to look upon the stars will never again conform to the restrictions of time. There are no boundries the King of Glory recognizes. Even Death itself hides from His face. The work of His humilty is long since finished, He has no interest in earthly realms. He returns only to end history in one mighty act of resurrection. Then there is eterniy.

The millennium is not literal. "1,000" is a number used in scripture hyperbolically to carry the idea of long duration. For example, "unto a thousand generations". It's not used literally in Revelation. Not even close. When Christ returns, it will be to hand over the kingdom to the father, because he will have made all of his enemies the footstool of his feet - including death. When he returns, he will hand over the kingdom to the father because he will have already taken dominion through all the earth. Christ will not wait until he returns before he starts to reign, and subdue his enemies. Let me break it down.

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

THe LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. Verses 21-22, and the sorrounding context, make it clear that DEATH is defeated AT the RESURRECTION, which takes place at the COMING of CHRIST! Christ will destroy death AT HIS COMING by RAISING men from the grave, and thus ALL enemies will be destroyed at his coming and thus it will be the end. Dispensationalists, on the other hand, are forced to say that Christ defeats death, NOT at his coming, but 1,000 years later when God sends fire from heaven to destroy Christ's enemies. According to this passage Christ defeats death at his coming..."AND THEN COMES THE END". NOT the beginning! Not the beginning of the millennium! The end. When Christ comes, it's the end. Period. "then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power." The last enemy to be destroyed is death, at Christ's coming. Christ doesn't come and then start subduing his enemies. Christ's returns to AN ALREADY SUBDUED WORLD, for he has already defeated ALL of his enemies. By the time Christ returns his enemies should be subdued. Only the final enemy (death) will need to be subdued. And death will be subdued at his coming. Thus, when he returns, ALL enemies will be subdued and Christ can hand over the kingdom to the God and Father!!! WHen Christ comes, it is the END. Finis.

The millennium is NOW! Take dominion!

what about the two resurrections in the same passage in rev. ?

[quote]

Originally posted by adam.naranjo

The millennium is not literal. "1,000" is a number used in scripture hyperbolically to carry the idea of long duration. For example, "unto a thousand generations". It's not used literally in Revelation. Not even close. When Christ returns, it will be to hand over the kingdom to the father, because he will have made all of his enemies the footstool of his feet - including death. When he returns, he will hand over the kingdom to the father because he will have already taken dominion through all the earth. Christ will not wait until he returns before he starts to reign, and subdue his enemies. Let me break it down.

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

THe LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. Verses 21-22, and the sorrounding context, make it clear that DEATH is defeated AT the RESURRECTION, which takes place at the COMING of CHRIST! Christ will destroy death AT HIS COMING by RAISING men from the grave, and thus ALL enemies will be destroyed at his coming and thus it will be the end. Dispensationalists, on the other hand, are forced to say that Christ defeats death, NOT at his coming, but 1,000 years later when God sends fire from heaven to destroy Christ's enemies. According to this passage Christ defeats death at his coming..."AND THEN COMES THE END". NOT the beginning! Not the beginning of the millennium! The end. When Christ comes, it's the end. Period. "then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power." The last enemy to be destroyed is death, at Christ's coming. Christ doesn't come and then start subduing his enemies. Christ's returns to AN ALREADY SUBDUED WORLD, for he has already defeated ALL of his enemies. By the time Christ returns his enemies should be subdued. Only the final enemy (death) will need to be subdued. And death will be subdued at his coming. Thus, when he returns, ALL enemies will be subdued and Christ can hand over the kingdom to the God and Father!!! WHen Christ comes, it is the END. Finis.

Adam,

Well said. The verse in Cor. is crucial to understand for correcting two wrongs.... 1000 year reign and the rapture. Because as you point out the "end" and the "eternal kingdom" comes first not a tribulation. Also, Christ will not come unto death is done away with so there could not be death in a so called millinial period. See my previous posts on these matters.

I challange you and others to understand rev. 20:1-10 to see thses events all occuring PRIOR to this end and this second coming.

Satan cast into the pit.
Satan acends out of the pit.
Battle of Magog and Gog.
Went up on the beadth of the earth.

The fire which comes down from heaven IS this second coming.

Scala boy,

What is your point about the two resurrections? Are you speaking at the white throne? or the confusion of verses 20:4,5,6 ( I believe I started a previous thread on this matter)

In Christ, Mark

Rev 20:4 area... there are two resurrections mentioned.

Originally posted by La Scala Boy

Rev 20:4 area... there are two resurrections mentioned.

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(KJV)


The purpose here is to show cause why the 'First Resurrection' is the regeneration(born-again) of the believer and not a Resurrection of the body.

The believer today meets all the requirements of the definition.

He is 'blessed and made holy'(II cor 5;21) because he is a partner in the Resurrection of Christ.This is how we become joint -heirs. Any one denying the Resurrrection of Christ is antichrist as unless He was raised bodily from the dead our faith is nothing.


Pete refers to the Church as;


1 Pet 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

John of course concurrs; (note the tense)

Rev 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(KJV)

This 'priesthood' is entirely populated by those who 'overcome'. As Paul writes;


Rom 8:36-37
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(KJV)


Conquerors and overcomers are translated from the same original word. Every christian is expected to be faithful even unto death, so being 'more than conquerors' is the status of all believers in Christ, whether events demonstrated this in life (martyerdom) or not. Every believer
is passed from death unto life. And is securely covered under the Blood of Christ. This renders him free from the power of the 'second death' and allows him to
reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Thus each requirement as liniated in v6 is already accomplished in the believer.


It is as important as it is common to refer to the born-again believer as being 'raised up,,formerly dead...


Eph 2:5-6
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(KJV)
Eph 2:1
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(KJV)

I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
(KJV)

The pattern here follows;
Num 19:11-12


11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.
12 He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.
(KJV)


With our 'patnership' in the 'First Resurrection', which came on the Third day. we gain newness of life through the righteousness of Christ imputed judically. This is common to all believers and without it we cannot be seen as 'clean' on the seventh day (last day).

All must participate in the 'third day cleansing' or 'First Resurrection' . Every believer must have a part here. But not every believer will be raised bodily. By the same token every believer must be raised spiritually.

Of course Christ offered up His body as a Sacrfice and neeeded not be raised in the spiritual sense, as we do. So His Resurrection does not require the second step. Thus for the believer, the First Resurrection is first in order and importance.

Take care

Hitch

Originally posted by La Scala Boy

Rev 20:4 area... there are two resurrections mentioned.

Your above statement is a common mis-understanding of this verse. There are two resurrections however the first is for the believer, the second for the wicked. These two groups are seen later in the chapter at the great white throne.

First resurrection

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God

Second resurrection

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

I urge you to study text on the resurrection which support the above, a resurrection of believers and then a resurection of the wicked.

The view that there are TWO different resurrections of believers is not supported by any other text.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "rest of the dead" in verse five.

The rest of the dead here are believers for first we see those in verse four will "live and reign" with Christ. But in verse six we see another group which will be "priests of God and Christ".

If you say that the "rest of the dead" refers to unbelievers then who are the "priests of God and Christ" ?. They must be believers and have a different service than those in verse four.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

"This is the first resurrection" is referring to the rest of the dead and does not "leap frog" back to those in verse four. This would not be proper reading of the english language.

The reason which most do this is that they do not understand where and how those in verse four got to the throne prior to the first resurrection. John had the same problem.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

John asks the question "where did these already arrayed in white come"?

Re 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they ?

The angel answers.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them * * white in the blood of the Lamb.
Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This is the group seen in 20:4 on the throne prior to the rest of the dead in Christ upon the first resurrection.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image *, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So again you need to ask yourself the following...

Is there multiple resurrections of believers? If so, what other text supports this?

If the "rest of the dead" are unbelievers then who are those which are priests of God and Christ ?


In Christ, Mark.

I agree that it doesn't seem to imply 2 resurrections of believers...
I don't think we can make one of them 'spiritual' and the other 'physical' due to the same word being used for both..

I do tend to think that perhaps the first refers to those matyred (to which John was writing prior to, essentially)
It's interesting to see what everyone thinks though.

Originally posted by La Scala Boy

I agree that it doesn't seem to imply 2 resurrections of believers...
I don't think we can make one of them 'spiritual' and the other 'physical' due to the same word being used for both..

I do tend to think that perhaps the first refers to those matyred (to which John was writing prior to, essentially)
It's interesting to see what everyone thinks though.

Eschatologies get into troulbe when they forget to center on Christ. Jesus said this of the resurrection:




John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

(Clearly this ongoing process refers to spiritual regeneration)

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


(Just as here, in a relatively small span of time 'all who are in the graves', All is quite a few especially when defined by Christ and the good and the evil alike.)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

Take care

H

In John 5 Jesus clearly contrasts a spiritual resurrection and a physical resurrection. In terms of physical resurrections the scripture, in EVERY place exept the passage under question, speaks of A SINGLE resurrection of the just and unjust. The Godly and the ungoldy. The O.T. and N.T. makes reference to THE resurrection and judgment to come. It's that simple. SO, if we are to use the analogy of faith and let scripture interpret scripture, then we ought to see the first resurrection in Revelation as a spirtual resurrection of some kind. (I have to Go)

Adam.n

[quote]

Originally posted by adam.naranjo

In John 5 Jesus clearly contrasts a spiritual resurrection and a physical resurrection.

I would not call it a "spiritual resurrection" rather a regeneration. But agree, Christ makes a contrast between the spiritual change which they have experienced to the change which occurs once they are quickened at the resurrection.

One is spiritual, the other physical.

In terms of physical resurrections the scripture, in EVERY place exept the passage under question, speaks of A SINGLE resurrection of the just and unjust. The Godly and the ungoldy.

Exactly, only one resurrection of the godly.

SO, if we are to use the analogy of faith and let scripture interpret scripture, then we ought to see the first resurrection in Revelation as a spirtual resurrection of some kind. (I have to Go)

Scripture says scripture always refers to the resurrection as physical.

In Christ, Mark.

Exactly, only one resurrection of the godly.

No. One resurrection of BOTH the godly AND the ungodly. That is key. "THE resurrection". Here are some passages, notice how the definite article "the" is used.

NAU Matthew
28 "In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her."
30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
Luke :23 "In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one's wife will she be? For all seven had married her."

NAU Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

NAU Luke 20:33 "In the resurrection therefore, which one's wife will she be? For all seven had married her."
35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


NAU John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


NAU John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."



NAU Acts 4:2 being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
NAU Acts 23:6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

NAU Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly bea resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

21 other than for this one statement which I shouted out while standing among them, 'For the resurrection of the dead I am on trial before you today.'"


1 Cor :21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;


NAU 2 Timothy 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

NAU Hebrews 6:2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

I would not call it a "spiritual resurrection" rather a regeneration.

Regeneration IS resurrection. To make alive again. The following passages sounds like a spiritual resurrection to me:

John 5:24-26 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

[quote]

Originally posted by adam.naranjo

No. One resurrection of BOTH the godly AND the ungodly.

Rev. 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power".

Are the ungodly blessed and holy? No. They have no part in the first resurrection but are raised at the second resurrection.

There are two resurrections one for the godly and one for the ungodly. The bible does state that they occur on the same day, the last day.

Also, why even mention a FIRST if there be not a second? Why not just say resurrection.

Regeneration IS resurrection. To make alive again. The following passages sounds like a spiritual resurrection to me:

Sounds like there is both, spritual and physical.........

In Christ, Mark.

I think you're right in showing that the main NT teaching is of a resurrection. I don't think we should then read a double resurrection back into that based on one verse in an apocolyptic / symbolic book...

Ross 3421,

Perhaps you should read my post again. Read the context of John 5:29. The resurrection of the just and the unjust happens on the same day - the last day - the day of resurrection.

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

THE resurrection happens on the LAST DAY. The last day of human history followed by the judgment of the just and the unjust.

there shall certainly be A resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

Take care,
Adam.n