Does God Answer Prayer? - TheologyWeb Campus
TheologyWeb Campus TheologyWeb Campus


Hello and welcome to TheologyWeb – theology debate with a serious dose of fun! It has been our goal to create one of the best and most innovative discussion sites on the Net. Please visit our forums where we debate and discuss everything from religion, politics, lifestyle, pop culture, to who is the coolest member of the moderating team. Register now and join in the fun, its free, easy, and makes Dee Dee Warren happy.




*This site is best viewed in Mozilla Firefox with a minimum display resolution of 1024x768.

Reply

Does God Answer Prayer?
View First Unread
Doubting John is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Atheist  |  Independent  
Posts: 2,821
Join Date: May 26th, 2005
Spam: 351 | Anti-Spam: 1570
Pearls: 484
 
Old
  July 2nd 2005 , 06:43 PM
 
 
 
 
 
I noticed in the "Chaplain's Office" people are praying for my wife who has been diagnosed with cancer. Thank you very much for your concern, and I sure would like to think it can help, but I really don't think so. You might prove me wrong, but here's what I think:

The Problem of Unanswered Prayer.

I’m not a stranger to unanswered prayer. I prayed daily for several years that Elton John would become a Christian and record Christian songs, when I was young. I finally gave up. Some may even be as skeptical of prayer as the late Carl Sagan, who wrote: “We can pray over the cholera victim, or we can give her 500 milligrams of tetracycline every 12 hours…the scientific treatments are hundreds or thousands of times more effective than the alternatives (like prayer). Even when the alternatives seem to work, we don’t actually know that they played any role.” The Demon Haunted World, (Random House, 1996, pp. 9-10).

The problem of unanswered prayer is particularly vexing when many Biblical promises of answered prayer seem unqualified (Matthew 7:7; John 14:13; 15:16; and 16:23). The problem is that our experience teaches us otherwise. We all know of someone who has died even though believers had prayed. This is true even of those we deem spiritual giants.

When we seriously reflect upon it, a recipe for disaster would be for God to simply give us whatever we ask. Whenever we experience the slightest suffering, answered prayer would rescue us. Yet suffering teaches us to have a deeper faith we are told, which brings more glory to God (James 1:2-4; I Peter 1:6-7). According to the Bible it’s God’s will that sometimes we suffer (Job). Sometimes it may even be God’s will that we fail in an endeavor. For only through pain and failure can we learn of God’s grace and truth in our lives in a way that makes future ministry more effective, it is said. (See Acts 7:23-36; Luke 22:31-32; John 21:15-19).

Several Biblical examples of unanswered prayer are discernible. They include Jesus’ request to avoid the cross (Matthew 27:39; Luke 22:42); Jesus’ prayer for Christian unity (John 17:20-22); Paul’s request to remove a “thorn in the flesh” (II Corinthians 12:7); and Paul’s request that he would be delivered from unbelievers in Jerusalem (Romans 15:31; compare Acts 21). While it may be true that both Jesus and Paul sought “Thy will not mine” their expressed desires went unanswered as intended.

INADEQUATE SOLUTIONS-- Three solutions are inadequate for this problem. One) Some Christians simply deny that prayer ever goes unanswered if prayed in faith. This is a radical view and has given rise to the “name it claim it” theology. But this view leads to intense guilt if prayers go unanswered, and forces some to paradoxically claim that God healed them even when the symptoms remain!

Two) Others believe God always answers prayer, but that sometimes his answer is “No.” But think about it; how is it possible that a negative answer is not considered an unanswered prayer? Someone who says an answered prayer is one in which God could sometimes say “No”, is merely saying God has responded in some way. But for us to say that prayer was answered we really want to know whether the request was granted or not. A denied request is one that goes unanswered, and a request granted is one that is answered. If someone wants to maintain that all prayers are answered, then we merely need to ask them whether God says, “yes” to all prayers, and God clearly doesn’t do this. That’s the whole reason why unanswered prayer is a problem in the first place, and it is a problem.

Three) Still others rationalize things away so that they can still say God answered their prayer even though God didn’t do as they requested. One church prayed for a cancer patient who died. The minister subsequently claimed God had answered their prayer because he said they were praying for her release from the hospital. Since she died, she was in fact released from the hospital and went to be with God. But that was not what they meant when they prayed. While it may be true to say God gives us what is best, that doesn’t mean he gives us exactly what we asked him.

SOME OTHER SOLUTIONS— Several other solutions are offered to help explain the problem of unanswered prayer. They demand that we see the promises of answered prayer as qualified ones. My contention here that the promise of answered prayer “dies the death of a thousand qualifications,” so to speak. There is no reason to think that God, if he exists, will answer our requests. Depending on how one categorizes them I’ve discovered several qualifications to answered prayer.

ONE) Sin in our lives. God is under no obligation to answer the specific prayers of one tangled in sin. (Psalms 66:18; Isaiah 59:1-2; James 5:16; I John 3:21-22). This includes all of the outward and inward sins in the Bible, plus not treating family members right (I Peter 3:7), and not growing as a Christian (John 15:15-16; Galatians 5:22-23). But a problem surfaces here. Since Christians are washed in the blood of Jesus, God supposedly sees no sin in them. How can God see our sins if we are already washed clean? But if somehow God can see our sins, and if that means seeing inside our filthy hearts, then no one is clean enough to expect anything from God when we pray. No one.

TWO) Wrong motives in our prayer. God is under no obligation to answer selfish prayers. (James 4:3). Conversely, our prayers must seek to glorify God not us. God is under no obligation to answer prayers that fail to give glory to God. (John 14:13; II Corinthians 12:9-10). We may not even know what would bring God the most glory. (John 9:3).

But there are some very strong arguments that indicate there is nothing a human can do or say that are completely free of selfish motives. Psychological Egoism, for instance, is the theory that everything we do, even if in some small degree, benefits us the most. While I do not accept that theory, it has a very large degree of truth to it. Even if we don’t take that extreme stance, most all of what we do is done from motives that benefit ourselves first. Most all of our prayers contain some selfish motives. Even the preacher who prays that his church mature and grow can also be wanting a bigger paycheck, more power, some recognized fame, and fewer problem people as they mature in their Christian faith.

THREE) Lack of faith in prayer. God is under no obligation to answer the prayers of someone who doesn’t believe he will. (Mark 11: 24; James 1:6-8; 5:15). This faith must show itself to be persistent and earnest in prayer. (Matt. 7:7; Luke 11:5-8; 18:1-8). Jesus does talk as if all you need is faith and God will intervene for you. He makes it sound easy. All you should have to do is say to that mountain to move over there, and it shall be done. But it doesn't move. So you blame yourself. Something must be wrong with your faith, is the conclusion. Then that failure is a memory and you don't step out so far on the limb next time. And when you fail in faith again, then you hesitate to step out on that limb again. This happens until you find yourself clinging to the tree trunk for fear of stepping out on faith much at all. So you feel guilty about this all over again. Then you hear a good sermon and try again, and when your faith fails you are back to the tree trunk again. So you feel guilty again. It's simply impossible for adults to have childlike faith because we are no longer children. We've had too many experiences that temper our faith—too many tragedies, too many unanswered prayers, too many setbacks. And all of these things have taught us that believing doesn't always work. So we simply don’t believe like we think we should. So we feel guilty, and we struggle some more. And we feel guilty some more for struggling, etc. I blame the traditional faith for causing this guilt. My view doesn't produce guilt because I no longer have such expectations that God will intervene in prayer.

FOUR) It must be according to God’s will. God is under no obligation to answer the prayer that is ignorant of God’s will. (I John 5:14-15: Matthew 27:39-41; Luke 22:42; John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23). Conversely, our prayers must not bring social injustice here on earth. God is under no obligation to answer a prayer that brings any injustice on others. (Luke 18:7-8).

Why would God answer the prayers of a slave owner who asked that none of his slaves would run away, or the prayers of the KKK for white supremacy, or the prayers of those who want a man standing accused of a crime to be found guilty, if in fact he is innocent? Unjust prayers have no assurance God will answer them. I understand that. But there are so many other ethical and social issues in our world today. How can we really claim on every issue that we really know the mind of God enough to pray for what we think should be done? Most of history is the history of human errors.

It is said that we may be praying for an end to AIDS, poverty, teenage pregnancy, and so on, but God doesn’t do much to change the situation because as a nation we have to repent first. But I cannot see how it’s not God’s will that more people be saved, and yet the Christian faith is losing ground in the world today. My cousin told me once that he doesn’t think God wants everyone to be saved. Of course he’s a good Calvinist and thinks God wills or decrees everything that happens. But the problem of evil resurfaces here. It takes more faith than I will ever have to say that it was God’s will for Hitler to start WWII, or for terrorists to fly planes into the World Trade Center’s Twin Towers in New York, or for good churches to fight and split up, or for children to die prematurely, or for people to starve to death. Calvinists believe God decrees those things to happen, and non-Calvinists simply believe that Christians are the ones blamed for not praying enough. But maybe prayer just doesn’t always help us like that.

FIVE) It must be within God’s power to grant the request. Sometimes believers are praying for contradictory things. It’s like two fellows both praying for the romantic affections of one girl, two athletes on opposite teams both praying to win a certain ball game, two people praying for the same job, or the farmer who prays for rain while the vacationer is praying for sunshine, and so on. Then too, what about mothers who are praying for the lives of their sons on opposite sides of a battle during the Civil War, or WWII? Or, what of a convicted criminal who prays for a judge to be lenient in his sentencing versus the victim who prays the criminal receives the maximum penalty allowed by law? God cannot answer all prayers because to do so would be to do what is logically impossible. This qualification alone may cause hundreds of thousands of prayers to go unanswered!

SIX) Biblical history teaches us that when praying for certain things God is under no obligation to answer our requests in our lifetime. We are told we must have patience because of God’s timetable. Think of the prayers offered during the long Israelite Egyptian slavery (Exodus 2:23-25), or the Babylonian Captivity (Lamentations 1-5). There were Jews who prayed for the coming of the Messiah, and for the many Christians down through the centuries who have prayed for the return of Jesus. There are surely other requests that just don’t fit into God’s timetable because we just don’t know God’s plan for earth. But in the meantime we wonder why God doesn’t help and/or rescue us when we hurt so badly.

SEVEN) Certain other requests must eventually be denied no matter how often we pray for them. Death, sickness, pain, hard work and strained relationships are part of the curse placed upon humankind because of the supposed Fall into sin. (Genesis 3:8-19). Prayer can lessen the effects of the Fall but it cannot eliminate them. We will eventually die. We cannot avoid getting sick from time to time. There will be strained relationships, and work will nearly always be hard. You cannot expect God to answer these prayers. Do not pray that you won’t die, or that work will be easy, or that you won’t have strained relationships. You will have strained relationships even if you pray daily not to have any. He cannot answer such prayers.

EIGHT) There is the additional problem of human free will (for non-Calvinists). There seems to be the admittance throughout the Bible that human beings have been given free will and that some choose to reject God ("whosoever will, may come"). Given this fact, one must wonder how much change we can expect by praying for an unrepentant person. I recall a conversation my Pastor had with me, as I was becoming a skeptical person. It went like this:
Pastor: John, my prayer for you is that you come to your senses before you go off the deep end.
John: Well, if that's your prayer and if prayer works, then I won't go off the deep end, will I?
Pastor: But it will depend upon whether or not you have a receptive heart.
John: Well, if it depends upon my heart, then why bother to pray for me?

Had my Pastor responded further by saying he will begin praying that I have a receptive heart, I could've responded as I did at first. I could've replied, "Well, if that's your prayer and if prayer works, then I will be given a receptive heart, won't I?" [Sometimes I’m just cantankerous]. Of course a Calvinist must admit that God has decreed that I should be a doubter and that I should write a book that will lead others into becoming doubters like me—even though the Bible tells us God desires all people everywhere to be saved! (See II Peter 3:9). [see my book: From Minster to Honest Doubter: Why I Changed My Mind, available at amazon.com].

A FINAL THOUGHT—Even though there are many qualifications for answered prayer we are told not to be timid in prayer. Jesus encouraged us to pray with expectation. In Hebrews 4:16 we are encouraged to come confidently before God’s throne of grace. Even when we are unsure what to pray for we are assured that God can read the thoughts of our hearts (Romans 8:26-27). But with all of the qualifications this is extremely hard to do. These qualifications are set up as a brick wall to our expecting anything from God.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: do ya think I'm sexy?    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
FirstSunday33ad is offline
FirstSunday33ad Mission Accomplished
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Confused  |  Social-Democrat  
Posts: 2,715
Join Date: May 2nd, 2003
Spam: 92 | Anti-Spam: 1903
Pearls: 685
 
Old
  July 2nd 2005 , 09:04 PM
 
Last edited by FirstSunday33ad : July 2nd 2005 at 09:10 PM .  
 
 
Does God answer prayer?

Sure does, least wise every prayer I've ever made has been answered.

The gist of your article seems to suggest that even if a prayer is answered it is irrelevent.

Perhaps that is the start of your problem right there?

All I know is I have prayed for specific answers - and being a rationalist and a realist, I don't fudge or massage the reply, I WANT a specific answer - and every time I have gotten it.

And yes, that does mean I have always received EXACTLY what I have prayed for.

Good luck in your new endevour.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: nuclear liberal    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when standards are high and results are measured."

George W. Bush, on the No Child Left Behind Act, Washington, D.C., Sept. 26, 2007
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Doubting John is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Atheist  |  Independent  
Posts: 2,821
Join Date: May 26th, 2005
Spam: 351 | Anti-Spam: 1570
Pearls: 484
 
Old
  July 4th 2005 , 10:55 PM
 
 
 
 
I find that of the people who faithfully read their horoscopes that they too believe these horoscopes tell them of the future. It seems as though they can somehow make anything fit themselves, just like Christians claim God answers their prayers. The mind is an amazing generator of fiction. Believing makes it so, irregardless of whether or not something objectively happened that actually fits. And even then there is the chance that sometimes it works because the odds are that it will once in a while. The odds are that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: do ya think I'm sexy?    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
betzerg is offline
betzerg Junior
Currently Unavailable
 
 
Posts: 425
Join Date: April 21st, 2005
Spam: 7 | Anti-Spam: 370
Pearls: 475
 
Old
  July 4th 2005 , 11:22 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad
Does God answer prayer?

Sure does, least wise every prayer I've ever made has been answered.

The gist of your article seems to suggest that even if a prayer is answered it is irrelevent.

Perhaps that is the start of your problem right there?

All I know is I have prayed for specific answers - and being a rationalist and a realist, I don't fudge or massage the reply, I WANT a specific answer - and every time I have gotten it.

And yes, that does mean I have always received EXACTLY what I have prayed for.

Good luck in your new endevour.
so could you be more specific....like..did yo pray that the sun would shine...or that you'd have enough air to breath....really...what kind of prayers are answered ...be very specific.

Shalom,

BETZER

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Doubting John is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Atheist  |  Independent  
Posts: 2,821
Join Date: May 26th, 2005
Spam: 351 | Anti-Spam: 1570
Pearls: 484
 
Old
  July 8th 2005 , 01:10 PM
 
In reply to this post by betzerg
 
 
 
The Struggles of Faith.

I used to try to understand where God is when tragedy struck. Or, why he allowed it... The only way I could get a handle on it was in hindsight, sometimes after a few years or more. It was faith that led me to believe it would all come together, even if I couldn't understand why it happened at the time. I'm sure that's where many Christians are when tragedy strikes....wondering....believing...hoping. And it's a struggle for them, like it was for me. But they struggle onward.

Psalms 46:10 tells us to "cease (struggling) and know I am God." But that's an impossible command to follow, when we as rational creatures do what rational creatures by nature must do...struggle with the things that happen in our lives. So on top of the tragedies in life, now they must struggle with guilt for struggling.

Well, I've just ceased struggling, period. I no longer try to figure out why God allows things to happen in our lives. Pardon my language here, but I now think [expletive] just happens. Sorry. I no longer try to figure things out, because I no longer have a faith that says God is in it. All I can say is that God will give you strength to bear up under life's tragedies. But I no longer say that God can allow or disallow anything that happens in our lives for some greater purpose.

I think of God as someone who is watching how we humans deal with each other and with the forces of nature. Otherwise we have to try to struggle with why there were so many hurricanes battering Florida in 2004. It's sort of an experiment to see what we can and will do with life on planet earth. With the free will he's given us, what will we do with life on earth? Make of it what you will. It's all yours now. Call to God for strength and wisdom if you like, or seek within yourself your own strength and wisdom--it's all the same. Do the best you can with what you have, and see what happens.

Perhaps this isn't enough for you. But it's absolutely freeing to me. There's no more guilt, and the guilt was overpowering to me.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: do ya think I'm sexy?    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
jpholding is offline
jpholding Approaching #20
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Toonist  |  Yankovic Party  
Posts: 16,337
Join Date: January 27th, 2003
Spam: 1033 | Anti-Spam: 3535
Pearls: 1462
 
Old
  July 9th 2005 , 11:02 AM
 
 
 
 
I guess it would be a waste of time to correct you by saying that you need to view prayer in terms of an ancient Greco-Roman model of patronage as opposed to a grocery gumball machine. Tends to make all those little problems go away, kind of like an Alka Seltzer.

But I guess you never learned about patronage while at school huh DJ.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: eats atheists for breakfast Alumnus of the Month: AotM vote winner - Issue reason: May 2006 Alumnus    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     

http://www.tektoonics.com

Due to rampant stupidity by Skeptics, and time issues, I'm only going to be on TWeb in my own (tektonics.org) section from now on. Deal with it.
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Tophet is offline
Tophet tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Private  
Posts: 346
Join Date: May 20th, 2003
Spam: 3 | Anti-Spam: 226
Pearls: 541
 
Old
  July 9th 2005 , 11:20 AM
 
 
 
 
Yo, John:

You ran away from my question from another thread. Can you answer it here and now?

Originally posted by Doubting John
Let God show me here and now, and I'll forever believe in him. This is not a threat. It's how I fell deep inside. It's not an argument. It's just who I am.
Is this who you are, John?

James 1:2-8
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a doubleminded man, unstable in all he does.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Doubting John is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Atheist  |  Independent  
Posts: 2,821
Join Date: May 26th, 2005
Spam: 351 | Anti-Spam: 1570
Pearls: 484
 
Old
  July 9th 2005 , 12:21 PM
 
In reply to this post by Tophet
 
 
 
Tophet

Keep posting your blather girl friend.

And soon everyone will ignore you.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: do ya think I'm sexy?    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Tophet is offline
Tophet tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Christian  |  Private  
Posts: 346
Join Date: May 20th, 2003
Spam: 3 | Anti-Spam: 226
Pearls: 541
 
Old
  July 9th 2005 , 12:33 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doubting John
Tophet

Keep posting your blather girl friend.

And soon everyone will ignore you.
Except you like to continue our relationship. Does your wife approve?

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
learning is offline
learning tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Canadian  
Posts: 3,226
Join Date: January 11th, 2004
Spam: 362 | Anti-Spam: 1244
Pearls: 301
 
Old
  July 11th 2005 , 07:57 PM
 
In reply to this post by Tophet
 
 
 
God has answered DJ's prayer for his wife. Leave him be.

DJ, here's an answer to prayer that "I" know is a true answer, as it was proof to me that God really is there. I told you of how at camp, that God gave me back my faith. Well, He did. But I later went and read some other atheist things, and through discussions, got to have a bad view of myself, so again lost faith in God, as I figured maybe some things were just 'coincidences' and maybe that healing of epilepsy was just a 'mental' thing or something else. And, because of how down I was, I actually was considering ending it all. I had a christian internet friend who lived in California, and the night I was considering it, in 2002, she said later, that she felt that God was speaking to her to get down and really pray for me. She didn't know why, but did pray for me. I read the next day on her site (and she had no idea how serious I was, in fact, I didn't even share with her until a couple of years later how bad it was) but she came on her discussion board, and said she didn't know why, but asked for others to pray for me. I knew then there had to be a God, who for some reason, wanted me to go on. I knew that she didn't know why, but God knew, why she needed to pray for me that day. I do remember feeling a strong urge to end it all, even had two methods picked out, and then, it sort of left me, this strong urge to end it all. I don't like talking about this, and this may not be enough for you, but it was and is for me. I would have to deny reality to not believe in God. No way, did anyone know I was so down on myself and had no hope. I know now, that He will not leave me nor forsake me. Those promises in the Bible are true. He will not leave you nor forsake you. We may forsake Him, but He doesn't us.

This was not my prayer, but hers. I couldn't even believe to pray, so didn't. But someone else did, for me, and I will be eternally grateful.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion.
He was manifested in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory."
I Timothy 3:16

"Safe?..., who said anything about safe? 'Course He isn't safe. But He's good. He's the King, I tell you."
~~~
C.S. Lewis, 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.'
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
Doubting John is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Atheist  |  Independent  
Posts: 2,821
Join Date: May 26th, 2005
Spam: 351 | Anti-Spam: 1570
Pearls: 484
 
Old
  July 11th 2005 , 10:33 PM
 
In reply to this post by learning
 
 
 
Learning:

I would have to deny reality to not believe in God.

I understand.

I actually don't know if God answers prayer. I pray with hope, especially for my wife.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: do ya think I'm sexy?    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
zorathruster is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Pastafarian  |  Rational  
Posts: 858
Join Date: June 22nd, 2004
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 455
Pearls: 357
 
Old
  July 12th 2005 , 08:06 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doubting John
Learning:

I actually don't know if God answers prayer. I pray with hope, especially for my wife.
The church of England has a part of the service where all attendees are required to pray for the health of the royal family. Now think about this, almost every person who is not Catholic in England for many hundreds of years, every sunday engaging in prayer for a specific "health" related topic. Now when you compare the royals to persons in the same socio-economic class for longivity they fair poorly. Less than average! Think about that, literally millions of people praying weekly for a specific positive outcome and basically - it doesn't work.

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
FirstSunday33ad is offline
FirstSunday33ad Mission Accomplished
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Confused  |  Social-Democrat  
Posts: 2,715
Join Date: May 2nd, 2003
Spam: 92 | Anti-Spam: 1903
Pearls: 685
 
Old
  July 12th 2005 , 09:09 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by zorathruster
The church of England has a part of the service where all attendees are required to pray for the health of the royal family. Now think about this, almost every person who is not Catholic in England for many hundreds of years, every sunday engaging in prayer for a specific "health" related topic. Now when you compare the royals to persons in the same socio-economic class for longivity they fair poorly. Less than average! Think about that, literally millions of people praying weekly for a specific positive outcome and basically - it doesn't work.

Oh for the love of pete....

It's no wonder atheists don't believe in God, its impossible to drill through that much concrete.

For your future knowledge and edification....prayer is not a candy-store, nor is it a wish-list, a letter to Santa, a "magical incantation" or any of the other non-working definitions atheists have come up with.

It is a personal statement between you and God. A generalized "prayer" for the "health" of the monarch - God save the Queen - is NOT a "prayer". Every thinking human on the planet recognizes it as being nothing more than a statement of loyalty and support for the monarchy.

 
  Letterman: gym debate particpant - Issue reason: nuclear liberal    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when standards are high and results are measured."

George W. Bush, on the No Child Left Behind Act, Washington, D.C., Sept. 26, 2007
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
learning is offline
learning tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Canadian  
Posts: 3,226
Join Date: January 11th, 2004
Spam: 362 | Anti-Spam: 1244
Pearls: 301
 
Old
  July 12th 2005 , 09:34 AM
 
 
 
 
shoot, what about the Queen Mum? She lived to 101.
God does make promises in His word, but often they are conditional, not to be mean, but for our own sake. IF is a word often seen in His promises. He says in the Old Testament, that the rules and guidelines He gave them were 'for their own good, that they might live long in the land'.

From my personal work with the aged, often those with a thankful-grateful heart
(they often thank us for work that we are payed to do), these persons often live a long life. One gentleman I know, who has passed away, was supposed to have died over seven years ago. He told me of how he thanked God for everything. But this gentleman was so missed by us all, he was such a lovely, kind, gentleman. He would say hello to everyone, staff, fellow residents in a seniors' residents, everyone. Many were so sad when he died. He always asked how one was, and took time to listen how they were. When I walked by his old room, I got a lump in my throat.

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion.
He was manifested in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory."
I Timothy 3:16

"Safe?..., who said anything about safe? 'Course He isn't safe. But He's good. He's the King, I tell you."
~~~
C.S. Lewis, 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.'
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
zorathruster is offline
Currently Unavailable
 
Male  |  Pastafarian  |  Rational  
Posts: 858
Join Date: June 22nd, 2004
Spam: 0 | Anti-Spam: 455
Pearls: 357
 
Old
  July 12th 2005 , 11:50 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by FirstSunday33ad
Oh for the love of pete....

It's no wonder atheists don't believe in God, its impossible to drill through that much concrete.

For your future knowledge and edification....prayer is not a candy-store, nor is it a wish-list, a letter to Santa, a "magical incantation" or any of the other non-working definitions atheists have come up with.
Well there you have it Qualifications out the wa-zu. Preachers standing at the pulpit don't issue the qualifications but when you get down to asking the "how does this supposedly work" or "What exactly is going to happen when I pray?" Theists such as 1sunday begin the hedging of the bet. Well it doesn't work this way - the way implied by all those who with quick sound bites asure others of relief or assistance. It doesn't work at all but they won't tell you that.

So what are the rules? If it happens like you wanted, it worked. If it doesn't happen the way you wanted, it worked but the Grand PooBah didn't want to do what you asked. There really according to such logic is no falsification criteria. That a proposal needs such a characteristic was validated by the work of Karl Popper who proved to most intelegent thinkers it is essential for any proposal. So much so that even in scientific review falsification criteria are an essential part.

So 1st Sunday what are the falsification criteria for your assertion that prayer works?

 
    Quiner Member tWebber  
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 
learning is offline
learning tWebber
Currently Unavailable
 
Female  |  Christian  |  Canadian  
Posts: 3,226
Join Date: January 11th, 2004
Spam: 362 | Anti-Spam: 1244
Pearls: 301
 
Old
  July 12th 2005 , 12:33 PM
 
 
 
 
Wasn't this already hashed out somewhere else before, about the falsification criteria of prayer?

I find, that the most important thing, is not that prayer changes 'things' as prayer changes 'me' or 'people'. Sure, I would love it if God would heal a lot of the people I work with, who have physical handicaps or illness. I would really love for a lot of the mental handicaps to be healed. But maybe, God allows them, so that love can grow?
It is the only answer I can find.


"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't often happen to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

From 'The Velveteen Rabbit' by Margery Williams

 
    Charter Member Quiner Member tWebber  
     
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion.
He was manifested in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory."
I Timothy 3:16

"Safe?..., who said anything about safe? 'Course He isn't safe. But He's good. He's the King, I tell you."
~~~
C.S. Lewis, 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.'
 
 
  Reply With Quote
Click Here for Post Options
 

« Previous Thread   |   Post New Thread   |   Next Thread »


 
Forum Jump  

Page generated in 0.65502 seconds with 14 queries