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Four conceptual problems with an incarnate God that have never been solved.
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 09:45 AM
 
 
 
 
 
The belief that Jesus was fully man and fully God has never been shown to be consistently defined, explained or defended. E. P. Sanders, in The Historical Figure of Jesus, sums it up: “It lies beyond my meager abilities as an interpreter of dogmatic theology to explain how it is possible for one person to be 100 per cent human and 100 per cent divine, without either interfering with the other.” (p. 134).

Here then are four conceptual problems with an incarnate God: 1) God is necessarily an uncreated being. Humans are essentially created beings. Therefore Jesus is both created and uncreated; 2) God is necessarily omniscient—he knows everything. Human beings are not omniscient beings. Therefore, Jesus is both an omniscient and also not an omniscient being. But in the New Testament Jesus didn’t act omniscient. He said he didn’t know the time of his own return; 3) God is a morally perfect being, and as such could not be tempted to do wrong. Human beings however, can be tempted to do wrong, and are imperfect. Therefore, Jesus could not be tempted, nor do any wrong, and yet we’re told that he was tempted to do wrong. 4) God is omnipresent, but Jesus as a human being, was not.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 09:54 AM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doubting John
The belief that Jesus was fully man and fully God has never been shown to be consistently defined, explained or defended. E. P. Sanders, in The Historical Figure of Jesus, sums it up: “It lies beyond my meager abilities as an interpreter of dogmatic theology to explain how it is possible for one person to be 100 per cent human and 100 per cent divine, without either interfering with the other.” (p. 134).

Here then are four conceptual problems with an incarnate God: 1) God is necessarily an uncreated being. Humans are essentially created beings. Therefore Jesus is both created and uncreated; 2) God is necessarily omniscient—he knows everything. Human beings are not omniscient beings. Therefore, Jesus is both an omniscient and also not an omniscient being. But in the New Testament Jesus didn’t act omniscient. He said he didn’t know the time of his own return; 3) God is a morally perfect being, and as such could not be tempted to do wrong. Human beings however, can be tempted to do wrong, and are imperfect. Therefore, Jesus could not be tempted, nor do any wrong, and yet we’re told that he was tempted to do wrong. 4) God is omnipresent, but Jesus as a human being, was not.
Question: Do you believe the infinite can meet the finite (G_d meet us, for example) in such a way that the finite fully comprehends every riddle and every mystery of the infinite?

In short, I'd expect there to be things we just cannot get -- that we cannot get our minds around. If not the incarnation, then it would be something else.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 10:06 AM
 
 
 
 
Ooh, ok, this is actually quite a fun thread.



Here then are four conceptual problems with an incarnate God: 1) God is necessarily an uncreated being. Humans are essentially created beings. Therefore Jesus is both created and uncreated;
Now that's just a silly objection - it's about an uncreated being becoming something new.


2) God is necessarily omniscient—he knows everything. Human beings are not omniscient beings. Therefore, Jesus is both an omniscient and also not an omniscient being. But in the New Testament Jesus didn’t act omniscient. He said he didn’t know the time of his own return;
OK, a slightly more forceful objection, but still hardly one - the obvious solution is to say that Jesus just layed aside the use of his omniscience for a temporary period


3) God is a morally perfect being, and as such could not be tempted to do wrong. Human beings however, can be tempted to do wrong, and are imperfect. Therefore, Jesus could not be tempted, nor do any wrong, and yet we’re told that he was tempted to do wrong.
I think this one's to do with the way you define things like 'tempted' - I think in the case of Jesus it would be something like struggling with a difficulty - it was something hard for him to do, but there was never any doubt that he would fail. He's human plus more.

4) God is omnipresent, but Jesus as a human being, was not.
Same thing as the omniscience really.

I think these objections rest upon an overly greek concept of God which really doesn't fit in with a proper biblical notion of him.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 12:26 PM
 
 
 
 
I can see it now, in tomorrow's newspapers all over the world:

Mark Porter Solves The Conceptual Problems Of An Incarnate God!

APA, Washington:

"Today in a brilliant stroke of genius Mark Poster has done what no other person, scholar or otherwise, has done before. By calling a problem or two "silly" and "hardly no problem at all" he has in one fell swoop answered the critics once and for all! Some of his answers, he said, are "obvious," but no one up until he typed his "post" saw them as obvious, until now.

"Well, I just couldn't take this 'Doubting John (DJ) movement" any longer, Porter said, as he puffed on his Cuban Cigar while basking on the beach in front of his mansion in California. "I just had to show DJ that he really doesn't know what he's talking about."

And that he did, some say. "Porter is my hero," said one groupy sitting next to him sprouting a rich tan in her scantily clad bikini. "I believed it could be done, but not as forcefully as he did in so few words," said his Mother. His father declined comment, as he was visibly shaken from his doubting ways.

According to reliable sources Porter is planning on priniting his recent "post" up into a book, complete with cartoon drawings to explain to the illiterate what he said. "I need to illustrate these concepts," he said, "because my argument is extremely complex, and hard for average folks to grasp."

He has even been approached by a major motion picture company to do a movie about his life and how he came up to these brilliant deductions. "It should be a block buster," said one company executive.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 12:40 PM
 
 
 
 
Doubting John, I think the claims you made in the first place were rather dubious - I don't think any scholar claims to fully understand every little detail of the mechanics of the incarnation but I think that to claim that most see it as some huge mystery with many contradictions is far from true.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 01:05 PM
 
 
 
 
Porter,

Didn't you say: "Ooh, ok, this is actually quite a fun thread."

Are you having any fun?

I am.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 01:15 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doubting John
Are you having any fun?

I am.
Yes, but do you have anything of substance to say? Something beyond, 'Well, we can't comprehend it so it is a problem.'

Jedidiah

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 01:16 PM
 
 
 
 
Hm. Has anyone read Thomas Morris' The Logic of God Incarnate?

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 01:31 PM
 
 
 
 
I have read sections of Thomas Morris' book, and I was a student of Dr. Ron Feenstra who edited a book and held a conference on such issues.

But I've also read the arguments of John Hick in his published books, including, The Myth of God Incarnate, and The Metaphor of God Incarnate, where he more than adequately deal with Morris, and Encountering Jesus: A Debate on Christology. Michael Martin's The Case Against Christianity also does a more than adequate job debunking Morris.

John Hick's argument against the deity of Jesus has three major points. We’ll briefly summarize and illustrate the first two which leads up to the conceptual problems that I first posted here. [The key words here and "summarize" and "illustrate."]


One) The traditional view that Jesus was literally God in the flesh was not something he himself believed or taught, but was written into the Gospels after the Easter event. For Palestinian Jews living in the first century, a close encounter with Jesus “would be a conversion experience.” For someone to see the conviction in his eyes as he preached that the kingdom is at hand, the authority of his words and deeds, the way he expressed love, the “miraculous” healings and providential circumstances that surrounded his life, and his apocalyptic conviction of living in the last days of the present age would lead one to think God is indeed in this person.

How this conversion experience led up to John’s claim in his Gospel that Jesus was “the only begotten Son of God” (John1: 18) is a large and complex topic. Wolfhart Pannenberg argues that the belief that Jesus claimed anything like this “has been demonstrated with growing certainty by critical study of the Gospels to be the work of the post-Easter community. Today it must be taken as all but certain that the pre-Easter Jesus neither designated himself as Messiah (or Son of God) nor accepted such a confession to him from others.” Jesus—God and Man (Westminister, 1968).

In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus says to a man, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (10:17-18). According to James Barr, “This only makes sense if Jesus is not claiming to be God.” Because “it fits with the fact that Jesus fully accepted Jewish monotheism.” Beyond Fundamentalism, 1984 (p. 58). By contrast, John’s Gospel, dated conservatively at 100 A.D., thirty (to forty-five) years after Mark, reveals a very high view of Christ.

Conservative scholar James Dunn, in The Evidence for Jesus, tells us the specific problem. It’s “whether we can use John’s Gospel as direct testimony to Jesus’ own teaching.” “This problem was not invented by modern scholarship; it was rather discovered by modern scholarship.” (p. 31). John’s Gospel is “obviously different” from the other three earlier Gospels in terms of style and content. In the other three Synoptic Gospels (so named because they see the same things) Jesus speaks in proverbs, epigrams, and in parables, whereas in John’s Gospel Jesus often speaks in long involved discourses (John 6, 14-17). In the three Synoptic Gospels Jesus speaks often of the “kingdom of God” and hardly anything about himself, but in John’s Gospel he speaks often about himself (“I am the light of the world…the bread of life…the way the life and the truth.”), but he hardly says anything about the kingdom of God.

At best, scholars see these differences as indicative of the fact that John’s Gospel is a theological elaboration of history, while still others see them indicating it is wholly theological in nature with not much historical value at all when it comes to what Jesus taught. Case in point is the question of the high view of Christ revealed in John’s Gospel. Even Dunn acknowledges that the number of times Jesus speaks of God as his “Father” or ‘the Father’ in John’s gospel (173 times--Dunn's count) when compared to all three earlier Synoptic Gospels (a total of 43 times, many repeated between them) leads him to say that John’s Jesus is “the truth of Jesus in retrospect rather than as expressed by Jesus at the time…it is expanded teaching of Jesus.” (p. 45). And yet it is mostly because of John’s Jesus that we get a very high Christology. John’s Jesus is quoted as saying: “I and the Father are one,” (John 10:30), and “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” (John14:9). But, based on what we’ve just seen, he never said those things. This is John’s Jesus speaking, not the historical Jesus.

Two) We can trace how Jesus was deified by his followers leading ultimately to the Nicean/Chalcedonian view of Christ as a way of expressing the Lordship of Jesus over the gods and goddesses of the Roman Empire. John Hick: “In general it seems that the early Christians, seeking to understand and communicate the significance of their Lord, grasped at concepts and titles within their culture and that the usage of these developed under the pressures of preaching and controversy.” (Encountering Jesus, p 14).
Jewish tradition in Jesus’ time had three major images of the redeemer who would bring in the coming new and glorious age. One was the “Messiah” (Hebrew for “King”), who was to reign in a new kingdom in which Jerusalem would be the center of the world, and where God’s will would be done on earth. The second was that of the “Son of man” prophesized in Daniel 7:13-14. Hick reminds us that “with a view to the later Christian doctrine of the incarnation, that neither the Messiah nor the Son of man was, in Jewish thinking, divine…it was emphatically not equivalent to being God incarnate.” Encountering Jesus, (pp. 7-9). It couldn’t be!

A third image was “Son of God,” which was common in the ancient world as well as in Biblical literature. Oscar Cullman: “The origin of the ‘son of God’ concept lies in ancient oriental religions, in which above all kings were thought to be begotten of gods…. In the N.T. period one could meet everywhere men who called themselves ‘sons of God’ because of their peculiar vocation or miraculous powers.” “In the O.T. we find this expression used in three ways: the whole people of Israel is called ‘Son of God’ (Hosea 11:1); kings bear the title (Ps. 2:7; II Sam. 7:14); persons with a special commission from God, such as angels (Job 1:6; 38:7), and perhaps also the Messiah, are so called.” The Christology of the N.T., (pp. 271-273).

According to John Hick: “It is not in the least surprising that Jesus, as a spirit-filled prophet, a charismatic healer, perhaps as Messiah, believed to be of the royal line of David, should have been thought of and should have thought of himself as, in this familiar metaphorical sense, a son of God. What happened, as the gospel went out beyond the Hebraic milieu into the Greek-dominated intellectual world of the Roman Empire, was that the metaphorical son of God was transformed into the metaphysical God the Son.” Encountering Jesus, (p. 14). Pannenberg: “At first the ‘Son of God’ concept did not express a participation in the divine essence….Only in Gentile Christianity was the divine Sonship understood physically as participation in the divine essence.” Jesus—God and Man (p. 117). The progression of this train of thought led up to the very strong affirmation of Nicene/Chalcedonian Christology of the 4th–5th centuries. John Hick: “It could well be that its deification of Jesus helped the early Christian community to survive its period of intermittent persecutions and that subsequently, if the church was to be the spiritual, moral, and cultural director of the Roman Empire, and thus of Western civilization, it needed the prestige of a founder who was none other than God, in the person of the eternal Son.” (in Encountering Jesus).

Three) The belief that Jesus was fully man and fully God has never been shown to be consistently defined, explained or defended.

[Mentioned in my first post]

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 01:49 PM
 
 
 
 
Frankly, I'm not interested in any god that can be fully comprehended by mankind or whose actions may be explained in a perfectly logical and consistent manner on all points.

I want G_d, not a logic textbook.
A personality, not a math equation.

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 04:41 PM
 
 
 
 
ok, so we've changed topic - the question is now - did Jesus actually claim to be divine or did the early church somehow distort things so that a guy who merely claimed to be some kind of human messiah was deified.

So, what are the problems with your view? in essence they seem to be that every single book of the NT has a high christology, that even in the synoptic gospels a good portion of Jesus' teaching and ministry indicates his divine claims as do the earliest christian creeds. You're asking me to believe that somehow a devout Jew like the apostle Paul was so influenced by the the distortions of the gentile converts (and the rest of the founding Jewish disciples, who, incidentally are the ones doing most of the preaching and leadership here!) that they came to accept a human being into the Godhead?

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 05:17 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Doubting John
The belief that Jesus was fully man and fully God has never been shown to be consistently defined, explained or defended. E. P. Sanders, in The Historical Figure of Jesus, sums it up: “It lies beyond my meager abilities as an interpreter of dogmatic theology to explain how it is possible for one person to be 100 per cent human and 100 per cent divine, without either interfering with the other.” (p. 134).

Here then are four conceptual problems with an incarnate God: 1) God is necessarily an uncreated being. Humans are essentially created beings. Therefore Jesus is both created and uncreated; 2) God is necessarily omniscient—he knows everything. Human beings are not omniscient beings. Therefore, Jesus is both an omniscient and also not an omniscient being. But in the New Testament Jesus didn’t act omniscient. He said he didn’t know the time of his own return; 3) God is a morally perfect being, and as such could not be tempted to do wrong. Human beings however, can be tempted to do wrong, and are imperfect. Therefore, Jesus could not be tempted, nor do any wrong, and yet we’re told that he was tempted to do wrong. 4) God is omnipresent, but Jesus as a human being, was not.
I haven't read anything other than the OP but if you think these questions have never been answered then

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 07:14 PM
 
 
 
 
Maybe I should be a bit nicer.

Originally posted by Doubting John
1) God is necessarily an uncreated being. Humans are essentially created beings. Therefore Jesus is both created and uncreated;
God is spirit. Jesus's body is human.



2) God is necessarily omniscient—he knows everything. Human beings are not omniscient beings. Therefore, Jesus is both an omniscient and also not an omniscient being. But in the New Testament Jesus didn’t act omniscient. He said he didn’t know the time of his own return;
Bottleneck memory. Jesus was in a human body and thus had no access to any information. Or OVTs are right. ;)


3) God is a morally perfect being, and as such could not be tempted to do wrong. Human beings however, can be tempted to do wrong, and are imperfect. Therefore, Jesus could not be tempted, nor do any wrong, and yet we’re told that he was tempted to do wrong.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of temptation. You can tempt somebody to do evil but that doesn't mean they'll do it.


4) God is omnipresent, but Jesus as a human being, was not.
His body was not. God is spirit.


Any more questions?

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 07:38 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Darth Executor
His body was not. God is spirit.

Any more questions?
What is spirit?

 
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Old
  July 10th 2005 , 07:43 PM
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by sandlewood
What is spirit?
This dictionary definition sounds good to me:

Incorporeal consciousness.

 
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Old
  July 11th 2005 , 11:30 AM
 
 
 
 
Keep in mind I answered DJ's dribble on this in Gen Theistics 101 in the original thread he started and he ignored it.

Feel free to let him talk to himself; or else feel free to torment him and justify his personal persecution complex.

 
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