Now that I know some on this forum have Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich it might be a good time to discuss in what way the word QEOS is used of the Christ in the NT according to the lastest Greek scholarship.

BDAG 405-406 2 "Some writings in our lit. use the word Q. w. ref. to Christ(without necessarily equating Christ with the Father and therefore in harmony with the Shema of Israel Dt. 6:4; cp Mk 10:18 and 4a below), though the interpretation of some of the pass. is in debate. In Mosaic and Gr-Rom traditions the fundamental semantic component in the understanding of deity is the factor of performance, namely saviorhood or extraordinary contributions to one's society. Dg. 10:6 defines the ancient perspective: hOS hA PARA TOU QEOU LABWN EXEI TAUTA TOIS EPIDEOMENOIS XORHGWN QEOS GINETAI TWN LAMBANANTWN one who ministers to the needy what one has received from God proves to be a god to the recipients (cp. Sb III, 6263, 27 of a mother). (...) In any event Q. certainly refers to Christ, as one who manifests primary characteristics of deity, in the foll. NT pass.: J 1:1b (w. hO QEOS 1:a, which refers to God in the monotheistic context of Israel's tradition. On the problem raised by such attribution s. J 10:34 (cp. Ex 7:1; Ps 81:6) ;

Notice how it starts out with Mark 10:18 "Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Also note that to understand how the Word is QEOS at John 1:1 we are told to compare Exodus 7:1? "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


Kind Regards,
Cal

Today @ 03:43 AM post located here
Cal_Minian:

Now that I know some on this forum have Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich it might be a good time to discuss in what way the word QEOS is used of the Christ in the NT according to the lastest Greek scholarship.



Notice how it starts out with Mark 10:18 "Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Also note that to understand how the Word is QEOS at John 1:1 we are told to compare Exodus 7:1? "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


Kind Regards,
Cal

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting!

-Tony

Today @ 12:43 PM post located here
Cal_Minian:

Now that I know some on this forum have Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich it might be a good time to discuss in what way the word QEOS is used of the Christ in the NT according to the lastest Greek scholarship.

BDAG 405-406 2 "Some writings in our lit. use the word Q. w. ref. to Christ(without necessarily equating Christ with the Father and therefore in harmony with the Shema of Israel Dt. 6:4; cp Mk 10:18 and 4a below), though the interpretation of some of the pass. is in debate. In Mosaic and Gr-Rom traditions the fundamental semantic component in the understanding of deity is the factor of performance, namely saviorhood or extraordinary contributions to one's society. Dg. 10:6 defines the ancient perspective: hOS hA PARA TOU QEOU LABWN EXEI TAUTA TOIS EPIDEOMENOIS XORHGWN QEOS GINETAI TWN LAMBANANTWN one who ministers to the needy what one has received from God proves to be a god to the recipients (cp. Sb III, 6263, 27 of a mother). (...) In any event Q. certainly refers to Christ, as one who manifests primary characteristics of deity, in the foll. NT pass.: J 1:1b (w. hO QEOS 1:a, which refers to God in the monotheistic context of Israel's tradition. On the problem raised by such attribution s. J 10:34 (cp. Ex 7:1; Ps 81:6) ;

Notice how it starts out with Mark 10:18 "Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Also note that to understand how the Word is QEOS at John 1:1 we are told to compare Exodus 7:1? "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Kind Regards,
Cal

Is this a serious post? It is a good example of quoting out-of-context. First, Mark 10:18 is quoted. Where does Jesus deny that He is good? And where does Jesus deny that He is God? Jesus does NOT deny that He is good, elsewhere He calls Himself the "Good Shepherd," ergo if only God is good, then Jesus must be . . .

And while the lexicons and current scholarship are essential tools, we cannot overlook those who actually speak, read and write the languages. Here are two Jewish translations of Ex 7:1. ORT is an Orthodox Jewish site.

• Kaplan-ORT Ex 7:1 God said to Moses, 'Observe! I will be making you like a god to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
  
  http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.as...2&CHAPTER=7#P1
  
  JPS Ex 7:1 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in G-d's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
  
  http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Exodus7.htm#1

"Also note that to understand how the Word is QEOS at John 1:1 we are told to compare Exodus 7:1?" That is NOT what the article is saying at all. Here is the pertinent section

• In any event Q. (QeoV) certainly refers to Christ, as one who manifests primary characteristics of deity, in the foll. NT pass.: J 1:1b (w. hO QEOS 1:a, which refers to God in the monotheistic context of Israel's tradition. On the problem raised by such attribution s. J 10:34 (cp. Ex 7:1; Ps 81:6)

The citation you misquoted merely points out problems, no doubt objections raised by non-Trinitarians. But the article very clearly states that, "Christ, as one who manifests primary characteristics of deity, in the foll. NT pass.: J 1:1b (w. hO QEOS 1:a, which refers to God in the monotheistic context of Israel's tradition."

Interesting, since Exodus 7:1 literally reads "I gave you God to (for) Pharoah."

There is nothing that says I made you God, just I gave you God.

Today @ 09:25 AM post located here
Jaltus:

Interesting, since Exodus 7:1 literally reads "I gave you God to (for) Pharoah."

There is nothing that says I made you God, just I gave you God.

Dear Jaltus,

Below are Exodus 7:1 in the KJV (which I quoted in the original post) the Brenton Septuagint and the Greek of the LXX. As you can see, both the KJV which was translated from the Hebrew text and the Brenton Septuagint which was translated from the Greek Septuagint text both render the Hebrew and Greek respetively " a god." Now THAT is interesting! Perhaps that is why BDAG compares Exodus 7:1 to John 1:1.

Exodus 7:1

• And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - KJV
  
  And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Behold, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet . Brenton LXX
  
  kai eipen kurioj pros Mwushn legwn idou dedwka se qeon Faraw kai Aarwn o avdelfos sou estai sou profhths - LXX

As for why the word " make" is used, according to BDB page 681 the Hebrew word used here, נ ת &#1503 , means " Make , constitute."

The Greek didwmi according to BDAG 242-243 gives a wide range of meanings including "produce, make , cause."

Why does the rendering "make" surprise you? I find it in many English translations.

Kind Regards,
Cal

Yesterday @ 10:37 PM post located here
OldShepherd:

Cal:
Notice how it starts out with Mark 10:18 "Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Also note that to understand how the Word is QEOS at John 1:1 we are told to compare Exodus 7:1? "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Kind Regards,
Cal

OldShepherd,
Is this a serious post? It is a good example of quoting out-of-context. First, Mark 10:18 is quoted. Where does Jesus deny that He is good? And where does Jesus deny that He is God? Jesus does NOT deny that He is good, elsewhere He calls Himself the "Good Shepherd," ergo if only God is good, then Jesus must be . . .

And while the lexicons and current scholarship are essential tools, we cannot overlook those who actually speak, read and write the languages. Here are two Jewish translations of Ex 7:1. ORT is an Orthodox Jewish site.

• Kaplan-ORT Ex 7:1 God said to Moses, 'Observe! I will be making you like a god to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
  
  http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.as...p;CHAPTER=7#P1
  
  JPS Ex 7:1 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in G-d's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
  
  http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Exodus7.htm#1

"Also note that to understand how the Word is QEOS at John 1:1 we are told to compare Exodus 7:1?" That is NOT what the article is saying at all. Here is the pertinent section

• In any event Q. (QeoV) certainly refers to Christ, as one who manifests primary characteristics of deity, in the foll. NT pass.: J 1:1b (w. hO QEOS 1:a, which refers to God in the monotheistic context of Israel's tradition. On the problem raised by such attribution s. J 10:34 (cp. Ex 7:1; Ps 81:6)

The citation you misquoted merely points out problems, no doubt objections raised by non-Trinitarians. But the article very clearly states that, "Christ, as one who manifests primary characteristics of deity, in the foll. NT pass.: J 1:1b (w. hO QEOS 1:a, which refers to God in the monotheistic context of Israel's tradition."

Dear OldShepherd,
You evidently do not agree with the Fathers who felt that Jesus was saying that 'no one is good but my Father who is in heaven." See my new thread in this forum for details. I guarantee you'll love it!

In addition, look at BDAG more closely. They say that the first instance of QEOS (the Father) has the sense of God in the monotheistic tradition but that the second one of the Word does not. They do compare the Word as QEOS with Exodus 7:1, that is what they mean by the abreviation (cp.) If they meant to contrast the definition they would say (but cp.) which they employ after 1John 5:20 which they say is open to question.

Kind Regards,
Cal

NTN (the Hebrew) means to give, put, or set (BDB p. 678), not to make or constitute.

Sorry, try again.

Today @ 02:38 PM post located here
Jaltus:

NTN (the Hebrew) means to give, put, or set (BDB p. 678), not to make or constitute.

Sorry, try again.

Dear Jaltus,
NTN is found from pages 678-681. The definition that applies to NTN for Exodus 7:1 is found on page 681 at the top left of the page in section 3.

I understand that you are quite advanced in your Greek studies. Have you started Hebrew yet?

Kind Regards,
Cal

3 years of Hebrew I am trying hard to forget.

Today @ 03:06 PM post located here
Jaltus:

3 years of Hebrew I am trying hard to forget.

Use it or lose it, Jaltus!

Regards,
Cal

Bah, one more OT class to go, then I can safely lose it.

What are your Hebrew qualifications Cal?

Comparing BDB and Halladay and TDOT I find the only BDB gives Ex 7 as and example of NTN being "To Make" In fact the other sources do not even give "to Make" as a primary definition at all, rather it falls under the nif. tense definition of "be given away" as a further explanation and even then is given the caveat " = become"

In my initial translation I did not even consider "to make" as an option. What we are learning here is that dependance on the lexicons alone is not enough.

Pilgrim

Pilgrim anticipated my post; as VanGemeren said in his class on the Wisdom Psalms try to forget BDB, the schoalrship in there is over 100 years old and its cognate information is less than helpful. HALOT, TDOT, DCH (Dictionary of Classical Hebrew) or NIDOTTE have much more upto date information. Here is HALOT's entry:

tn: MHeb.; Arm. pf. only Yaud., OArm. and EgArm. (Jean-H. Dictionnaire 188); OSin. tn (Albright Proto-Sin. 44) otherwise replaced by bhy; impf. Zendjirli, T. Halaf, Pehl. EgArm. Driver Arm. Docs., Nab. Palm., ï BArm. JArm. Sam. (Ben-H. 2:655b), Mnd. (Drower-M. Dictionary 307b), CPArm. ytl and Syr. nettel < y/netten l (Brockelmann Grundriss 1:291); ytn Ug. (Gordon Textbook §19:1169; Aistleitner 1255; cf. Fisher Parallels 1: p. 23 no. 17; Fisher Parallels 2: p. 15, no. 22f; p. 22 no. 37; as well as ntn Gordon Textbook §19:1716a; Dahood Ug-Heb. 66) and Ph. (Harris Gramm. 108f; Friedrich §158-160); Amor. Yantin-, rarely Yatin- (Huffmon 244); Akk. nadaÒnu (AHw. 701a); Can. yudanu and simil. (Böhl Spr. §30c, d) and Taanach (Albright BASOR 94:23, line 20); missing in Arb.; OSArb. only personal name ntn (Conti 191b) and Eth. (Leslau 35); Nöldeke Neue Beitr. 192f: orig. biradical, n is an augment of the root, see vSoden Gramm. §102b; R. Meyer Gramm. §16, 3b.

qal (ca. 1919 times): pf. !t†'Ænt;n", hn"t†'Æhn"t.n†', ¿hÀT't;n: (rd. thus 2S 2241), T.t;n" (yT.t;n" Ezk 1618, Bauer-L. Heb. 310k), yTit†'n", Wnt.n†' (WNt†'n" Ezk 2719, Bauer-L. Heb. 218c), ~T,t;n>, WNt;n", Ant†'n>, $'n>t†'n>, ynIn†'t'n>, wyTiÆWhyTit;n>; impf. !teYIw: (Sec. oui?eqqen, Brönno 25. 27), -nT,yI, hn"T.a,w", !TenI (!T;nI Ju 165 Gesenius-K. §66h, Bergsträsser 2:123d), WNn<T.yI, $'n>T,yI, AnT.Ti Ex 2229 (Bauer-L. Heb. 337n); impv. ¿-ÀnTe, -nT,, ynIT., ynIt†e Is 436 (R. Meyer Gramm. §76, 3 b), WnT., ~nEÆWhnET.; hN"n<T., inf. !ton>, -nt'n> usually tTe < *tint, ttel' -tt,l†', !T,til., (1K 619 rd. ttel' or *tn<t,ñl'), ATTi, yTiTi, WnTeTi, on hn"T. Ps 82 cf. Donner ZAW 79 (1967):324f, !¿AÀton"; pt. !te¿AÀnO, $'n>t,nO, !Wtn", ~ynIWtÆtun>, tAnWtn>; qal pass. ï hof.: cf. THAT 2:117ff.

—1. to give, with l. to someone Gn 36, present 2311, payment Ps 498, with la, to Gn 187 (cf. Labuschagne Fschr. Beek 179f), to deliver Ex 1518, to give in exchange Pr 3124.

—2. with two acc., to present someone with something Jos 1519 Is 274 Jr 91 Ezr 98; to give up 1K 1826 Ezk 458, to sell Gn 234.9.13 :: 11 (cf. Lehmann BASOR 129:15ff); to be the cause of Pr 1010 (grief), 1310 (dispute); with la, tAa to offer Dt 132, with taef.m; to grant Est 218, with hl've (Q hl'aev.) to fulfil 1S 117, with Alyxe to produce, bring Jl 222, with Ayr>Pi Zech 812 Ps 13, with Hl'Wby> Zech 812, with ~k,P.n>[; to drive Ezk 368.

—3. with hm'WrT. Ex 3014, xb;z< Qoh 417, to offer a son hwhyl 1S 111; pt. pass. with l. (ï 12) determined, prepared Nu 39 816 1C 633.

—4. hV'ail. !t;n" to give to a woman Gn 304; l. !t;n" to relinquish Est 311; ynEp.li Ån" to set before Jr 4410; n"ÅdM'[i Ån" to associate Gn 312; l. Ån" to requite Jr 1710; @s,K,B; Ån" to turn into money Dt 1425; B. Ån" to give for Jl 43 Ezk 2716. cj. 13 (rd. vp,n< and %ber'[]m;B.) cj. 14 (rd. %yIn"Abz>[iB.). cj. 17 (rd. yJexi and %ber'[]m;B.), = d[;B. Ån" Jb 24.

—5. with ATb.vi Ex 2119 ï bvy 3 b; with dy" ï dy" 2 a; with ATb.k'v. etc. Lv 1820.23 2015 Nu 520 ï *tb,kov..

—6. !TeyI ymi (Brockelmann Heb. Syb. §9) who gives?, meaning would that it may be so! (not the same as Akk. mannu inamdin, see Lambert Wisdom 241 lines 45-47 and note on p. 247, bilingual proverbs); Jongeling VT 24 (1974):32ff): br,[, !TeyI ymi would that it were evening! Dt 2867, yli-nT,yI ymi if only someone would give me! Ps 557, ynInET.yI ymi would that I may be given! Jr 91, WnteWm !TeyI ymi would that we were dead! Ex 163 etc.; differently Jb 144 3131 can anyone change it (to white)? (Fohrer Hiob 424 and 426 :: Jongeling VT 24 (1974) 32ff).

—7. to hand down (knowledge) Pr 99, to announce tpeAm 1K 133.5.

—8. with acc. and l. with inf. to allow (Can. Youngblood BASOR 168 (1962):26): $'yTit;n> [;GOn>li I have (not) allowed you to touch Gn 206 ï 317 Ex 319 Nu 2213 Jos 1019, ? cj. Jr 3914 (Rudolph(3 )245); rd. rbo[]l; Nu 2021 and 2123, rd. ~WnT.yI Hos 54; yxiWr bveh' ynInET.yI he will (not) let me get my breath Jb 918; = l. !t;n" with l. with inf. Est 811 Ps 5523 (without l.), 2C 2010; dy:B. !t;n" with l. with inf. charged him to 1C 167.

—9. with l. to surrender to someone Lam 330; cf. Mari ana qaÒt PN mulluÖ to hand over to someone, deliver up (AHw. 598; Heintz VTSupp. 17 (1969):125ff), @k;B. !t;n" to deliver into the hand Ju 613; = dy:B. Ån" Ju 328 47 and elsewhere, cf. vRad Der heilige Krieg (1951):4-9; W. Richter BBB 18(2), 21ff; O. Keel Wirkmächtige Siegeszeichen im AT (1974):47(1); Stolz ATANT 60 (1972):21f; ynEp.li Ån" to hand over to Dt 231 Ju 119; n"Ån" with acc. to deliver up Ps 4412 Mi 52; ABli Ån" and Avp.n: Ån" with l. with inf. to devote oneself to something in order to 1C 2219.

—10. Axre Ån" to give off its smell Song 112, n"Ån" Any[e to show its shine Pr 2331; @To Ån" to beat the drum, tambourine Ps 813.

—11. la, wyn"P' Ån" (cf. Ug. ntn pnm Caquot-S. Textes 120); Akk. nadaÒnu paÒna ana (AHw. 702b), paÒniÒ/paÒnam sëakaÒnu ana + inf. (AHw. 819b, 15) to direct one’s face towards Da 93, with B. against Lv 1710; varo Ån" with l. with inf. to take it into one’s head to Neh 917; :: abs. varo Ån" to submit oneself to a leader Nu 144; ABli Ån" with inf. to make up one’s mind to Qoh 113.17 816, with l. to pay attention to 721 89; l. hl'p.Ti Ån" to make improper utterances Jb 122.

—12. to set, place, lay: ~h,yPi-l[; Ån" he put something into his mouth Mi 35; hP, rp'['B, Ån" (meaning to be meekly silent) Lam 329; n"Ån" ble-la, to put into the heart Neh 75, = bleB. Ezr 727, ABli-la, Ån" to take to one’s heart Qoh 72; wyn"P' xk;nO Ån" to set before oneself, meaning to consider properly Ezk 143 (parallel with ~yfi of 4); aSeki Jr 115, !Ara] 2C 353 (see Rudolph 326), rWsaeh' tyBe Jr 3715, with !yBe Ex 3018, hM'v†' 3018, with B. Gn 117 913, varol. to set one’s mind to Pr 49; to set up Lv 261; with B. to bring into Gn 4148; to put into Dt 1517, to take into Ps 1014, to set (fire) to Ezk 308.14, to set against 269; with l[; Nu 518, with la, Jr 2926; with l[; to add to Lv 215; !t;n: lAq to raise the voice: a) of people Gn 452 of birds Ps 10412 and elsewhere; b) of Yahweh: to thunder 2S 2214; Jr 2530 Jl 416 Am 12 and elsewhere (without lAq Jr 1013 5116), cf. Akk. nadaÒnu rigma (EA 147:13), Ug. (y)tn ql (Fisher Parallels 1: p. 23 no. 17); also !t;n" lAqB. of God Ps 467, 6834, of the people Jr 128, of lions Jr 215; l. lAq !t;n" to shout Pr 23, with l[; in a hostile sense Jr 416; hL'hiq. Ån" to hold an assembly Neh 57; l[; hb'[eAT Ån" to impose (punishment on someone for) abomination Ezk 73; B. ~D' Ån" to bring blood (guilt) within (Israel) Dt 218; l[; Ån" to set (the nations) against Ezk 198 (Zimmerli 419), ~D' Ån" l[; to lay blood (guilt) on Jon 114; to bring (or carry) away (vDyck VT 18 (1968):21ff) meaning to pour out blood upon Ezk 248 (parallel with ~yfi and %p;v' of 7) 1K 25, rain Ps 10532; tx;T; Ån" to put someone into a position instead of someone else 1K 235; *!Wtn" stationed, resident Ezr 817K see Rudolph 80); alt. with Q ï *!ytin"; possibly a gloss.

—13. with two acc., to turn someone into something (parallel with ~yf) ~yIAG !Amh]-ba; $'yTit;n> to make the father of a multitude of nations Gn 175, yKir>D; ~ymiT' Ån" he made my way blameless Ps 1833 (:: 2S 2233 rTeY:w:, rtn, ? rd. rT;a,w"); ï Ex 71 Dt 287 Jr 15; with acc. and l.: yAgl. wyTit;n> Gn 1720 484 Is 496 Jr 118 etc.; hl'a'l. Ån" to turn into (the object of) an oath Nu 521 Jr 249, lv'm'l. into a laughing-stock 2C 720; with acc. and K.: lxer'K. Ån" Ru 411, Is 412 (rd. ~nET.yI), 1K 1027; with acc. and ynEp.li (= l. ?) 1S 116 (cf. Stoebe KAT 8/1:91); ~ymix]r;l. Ån" ynEp.li to let someone find compassion 1K 850 Ps 10646 Neh 111, ~ymix]r;l.W ds,x,l. Ån" Da 19.

—Emendations: Jr 1013 and 5116 rd. %T;nI ($tn nif.); Ps 7215 and Pr 1310 rd. !T;yUw> (ï hof.); Pr 1212 ï II !ty, alt. !t'yaeB..

nif: (83 times): pf. !T;nI, hn"T.nI, hn"T†'nI (Neh 1310, 3rd. pl. fem., Bauer-L. Heb. 315o; Bergsträsser 2:15b), ~T,T;nI, WNT;nI; impf. !teN"yI, !t,N"ñyI Lv 2420 2S 216K; inf. !teN"hi, !AtN"hii; pt. !T'nI:

—1. to be given Ex 516 Is 3316; tAyn"m. Neh 1310; (law) to be proclaimed Est 314; to be given into someone’s hand (authority) Gn 92 and often; l. hV'ail. hn"T.nI to be given as a wife Gn 3814 1S 1819; rv,a] l[; rp,se ÅnI a scroll given to someone who (cannot read) Is 2912; with dy:-l[; to be handed over 2K 227, with l., to be given as, i.e. for Ezk 1115 154; with l. someone endowed with 2C 213, = with dy:B. 2C 3416;

—2. to be sacrificed as Is 5112 (:: Gerleman VT 21 (1971):523f), to be given up Ezk 3114, with l. to be made Ezk 4711, with l[; to be laid on Da 812;

—3. misc.: to be granted Est 213, to be allowed Est 53.6; to be laid, placed Ezk 3223; Hos 810 for WnT.yI rd. (?) WnT.nI (cf. I. Willi-Plein BZAW 123 (1973):167).

pass. qal (trad. hof.; Can. yudanu, see above; Bauer-L. Heb. 286 l, m.): impf. !T;yU: to be given Nu 2654 325 (with acc., Brockelmann Heb. Syn. §35d) 2S 216 Q 2K 517, Jb 2815, cj. Is 539; hV'ail. !T;yU (with ta, !) to be given as a wife 1K 221; with l[; water put on seed Lv 1138; cj. !T;yU to be allowed Pr 1024; cj. Jb 3710;

—Emendations: 2S 189 (rd. lT'YIw:: hlt nif. l :: n ï Kennedy 89). †

Today @ 03:36 PM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:

What are your Hebrew qualifications Cal?

Dear DeeDee,
I have systematically studied through Page Kelley including the workbook and frequently consult Seow. I would say I have about 6 years total exposure with perhaps 3 years intensive study. I know the orthography and the grammar and can translate Hebrew, albeit laboriously. I have a friend who TA's Hebrew at a Seminary who tells me that if their first year students can use Brown-Driver-Briggs by the end of the year they have accomplished what they have set out to learn. I am proficient in the use of BDB. I can find passages and phrases from my BHS but to be honest I don’t like it much. Hebrew is hard for me. I have studied Greek for about 9 years and 5 years of those were very intensive. My Greek is much better than my Hebrew and I can read passages of Greek, especially John, without the need to translate into English. After about the third year of intensive study the idiom and word order of Greek started to come to me and I am grateful for that. As far as I am concerned, no one really finishes learning these languages. I try to use them each week and generally multiple times per week. I have a love for the original languages and an obsession with them that cannot be taught at a Seminary, one needs to have that drive from within. Someone who is forced to take the languages to become a Pastor but does not see the need for them never really learned. Those who learned it but do not continue using it will not retain it. Therefore if one has a love for the original languages and pursues it with intensity one step at a time they will be the tortoise in the race with the hare. The self-taught individual who loves the languages after 10 years will be much more proficient that the Seminarian who did not like them to begin with and/or did not continue to use them.

That’s my 2 cents.

Kind Regards,
Cal

Thank you, now was that so hard?