On May 15, 1948 the modern nation of Israel was founded. For some Christians that was a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy that had been predicted for many years. For other Christians it had nothing to do with Bible prophecy. Why is that?

The Church fathers believed that before the return of Christ the Jews would be saved. Augustine said:

That the last judgment, then, shall be administered by Jesus Christ in the manner predicted in the sacred writings is denied or doubted by no one, unless by those who, through some incredible animosity or blindness, decline to believe these writings, though already their truth is demonstrated to all the world. And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jews shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated; the world shall be burned and renewed. All these things, we believe, shall come to pass; but how, or in what order, human understanding cannot perfectly teach us, but only the experience of the events themselves. My opinion, however, is, that they will happen in the order in which I have related them. City of God, Book XX, Chapter 30.

The fathers based their beliefs on such scriptures as Romans 11:25 and Revelation 3:9. However, it wasn't deemed necessary for the Jews to be under their own government in their own land again. The church was believed to be the true Israel. The Old Testament was understood to be speaking either allegorically or typologically of Christ and the church.

However, when it came to prophecy the fathers took a more literal approach. The visions of Daniel were seen as referring to earthly kingdoms past and present. This was consistent with earlier Jewish interpretation of Daniel as evidenced by Josephus, who considered the destruction of Jerusalem to be related to Daniel's abomination of desolation. Ireaneus named the Latinos as a possible fulfullment for the number of the beast.

3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (Euanqas) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (Lateinos) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule:... Irenaeus, Against The Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXX

The early church believed that Rome would be destroyed and Christ would return.

http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1171

(pdf file)

Rome was destroyed and the medieval church patiently waited for Christ to return. Then came the Reformation led by Martin Luther. Luther's approach to prophecy came to be dominated by his view of the book of Revelation. In 1522 he confessed he didn't know what the book was about. But by 1530 his view of the book had changed. Now the papcy was the antichrist and he associated the Turk with the beasts unleashed after a millennium of bondage.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journa.../ehlers34.html

A flurry of new interpretations of the book of Revelation was published in 16th century England that followed Luther's lead of identifying the papacy with the antichrist. Among these were John Bale, Thomas Brightman, and Joeseph Mede.

In the seventeenth century exegetes began to reject the spiritual interpretation of Israel and predict a re-establishment of a national Israel. New interpreters would often set dates for Christ's return and thus made false prophets of their selves. The seventeenth century father of modern physics, Sir Isaac Newton, was among these new interpreters. Newton was also a heretic who rejected the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Newton was different than some of the other false prophets in that he set dates much later for eschatological events, but some of them have already past.

http://www.isaac-newton.org/snobelen.pdf

The preference for a literal rather than a spiritual interpretation of scripture succeeded in making false prophets out of exegetes, and it is a practice that still persists today, and does nothing but bring discredit to Christianity.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-01/gardner.html

Let me give you a brief summary of all Biblical Prophecy contained in Daniel and Revelation:

G_d Wins.

That is what those books mean.
People who get obsessed over bar codes, the nation of Israel, the EU, and other little things are on the fast track to the nut house.

I whole-heartedly agree.

For American futurism's most vocal supporters,the DFs, 1948 will likely prove to be the blow that ended the fight. Its a real problem for the 'church age' and its parent the 'God's Clock of Prophecy' being stopped, sect. If Biblical prophecy, especially direectly consaerning Israel is a contemporary fulfillment the 'church age' as defined by DFs does not and never did exist. Heh heh

H

Originally posted by Hitch

For American futurism's most vocal supporters,the DFs, 1948 will likely prove to be the blow that ended the fight. Its a real problem for the 'church age' and its parent the 'God's Clock of Prophecy' being stopped, sect. If Biblical prophecy, especially direectly consaerning Israel is a contemporary fulfillment the 'church age' as defined by DFs does not and never did exist. Heh heh

H

So the church age is supposed to be from the Jews rejection of Christ until the rapture. The rapture is supposed to happen within a generation of the establishment of Israel. Some interpret generation to be 40 years, and that's why the rapture was supposed to happen in 1988. But you're saying since all those alive when Israel was established will die before there is any rapture it will be the end of DF, right?

I dunno. Such groups as Jehovah's Wittnesses keep setting dates and missing them, but I'm not sure it has affected their membership. They just keep coming up with excuses and people keep buying it.

Originally posted by eschaton

So the church age is supposed to be from the Jews rejection of Christ until the rapture. The rapture is supposed to happen within a generation of the establishment of Israel. Some interpret generation to be 40 years, and that's why the rapture was supposed to happen in 1988. But you're saying since all those alive when Israel was established will die before there is any rapture it will be the end of DF, right?

I dunno. Such groups as Jehovah's Wittnesses keep setting dates and missing them, but I'm not sure it has affected their membership. They just keep coming up with excuses and people keep buying it.

Bad ideas have a life of their own, but since the head is dead, meaning the leadership has long since kept quiet wrt the conflicting notions of contemporary fulfillments its only a matter of time before the stench of death reaches the entire body. Of course you're correct there will always be some ready to buy in.

H

no you guys better behave I am finally updating my site tonigth like a fiend and I am featuring this thread. Behave or I will have to throttle ya

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren

no you guys better behave I am finally updating my site tonigth like a fiend and I am featuring this thread. Behave or I will have to throttle ya

Thanks for featuring the thread. I'll try to be good. I've got a better thread coming tomorrow, Lord willing.

Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil

Let me give you a brief summary of all Biblical Prophecy contained in Daniel and Revelation:

G_d Wins.

That is what those books mean.
People who get obsessed over bar codes, the nation of Israel, the EU, and other little things are on the fast track to the nut house.

I too agree.

As I understand it, though, The Book of Daniel was religious fiction, and not meant to be prophecy at all.

Originally posted by Darth Ryokan

I too agree.

As I understand it, though, The Book of Daniel was religious fiction, and not meant to be prophecy at all.

Why do you say it wasn't meant to be prophecy?

Originally posted by eschaton

Why do you say it wasn't meant to be prophecy?

Why did Jesus refer to it this way?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Originally posted by eschaton

Why did Jesus refer to it this way?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Im going to guess he had heard this about Job and his memory slipped.

Originally posted by Hitch

Im going to guess he had heard this about Job and his memory slipped.

will weigh in later. Just want to mark it here

To me, most of the scriptures that are used to say that Israel will be gathered together before Christ returns seem to actually be talking about how Israel was gathered back together after the Babylonian Captivity.

Just my opinion, anyhoo.

Originally posted by eschaton

Why do you say it wasn't meant to be prophecy?

Here is what he says in Matthew:Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand

Here's Mark: 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. 7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


So, except for that one phrase there, Mark and Matthew say the same thing, more or less. Why the difference. Well, Matthew had a different intention than Mark. he was preaching to Jews, not Gentiles. Every chance he got, he tied Jesus into the old testament and Jewish tradition. That way, the Jews would feel like they were fulfilling, not betraying, their heritage. Greeks and Romans didn't care about that stuff. So he adds this in, because Daniel was historical as far as he knew, (written like 300 odd years before, I think) and made his point nicely. But I could be wrong.

Which phrase? You're not talking about Mark 13:14 are you?