I mean if you're a protestant. Spl_cadet has already done of good job of this from a Catholic standpoint.

And I don't mean evidence from your personal life. I mean publicly verifiable evidence.

Robin

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

I mean if you're a protestant. Spl_cadet has already done of good job of this from a Catholic standpoint.

And I don't mean evidence from your personal life. I mean publicly verifiable evidence.

Robin

Why do we need one?

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Why do we need one?

I think it is a reasonable request.

The problem with a 'publically verifiable' one is that historical events are not verifiable via the Scientific Method. For example, if I was lame and could walk again after a prayer is there a skeptic here who would believe it? How about if I got 10 signed affidavits? Twenty? Fifty?

It is too easy to write the doctors off as confused, the witnesses as 'true believers' and the entire medical condition as fakery.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Why do we need one?

Bill, I certainly don’t think Protestants have an obligation to cite examples of modern miracles.

It’s just that most Protestants I know seem to believe that miracles happen -- frankly -- all the time. And if you have a religion where events contravening the laws of nature often happen, one would think that this might constitute some good evidence for the truth of your religion. It seems to me it would be a little odd if, after all this time, absolutely none of these cases were verifiable.

In line with this, Catholics have their Lourdes, their Zeitoun, their Fatima with its Dance of the Sun: “Word got out about the visions, and by Oct. 13, 1917, when The Lady had promised to produce a miracle, a crowd of perhaps 70,000 had gathered. As usual, only the three children were able to see the apparition, but the assembled thousands witnessed an extraordinary phenomenon. The sun spun around three times, they said, emitting colored rays. Then it zigzagged downward and seemed to fall close to the ground. This ''dance of the sun,'' as it came to be known, lasted ten minutes.”

I’m more or less assuming Protestants have cases that they can point to as well. I was just curious what they might be.

Robin Goodfellow

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

Bill, I certainly don’t think Protestants have an obligation to cite examples of modern miracles.


Robin Goodfellow

How about a Baha'i miracle?

The execution of the Bab on July 8, 1850 is a fairly well documented event that would be called miraculous by today's standards. The Bab, Ali-Muhammad, was executed by a firing squad of 750 riflemen, twice.

On May 24, 1844 the Bab proclaimed his station as 'the Gate', the messiah for the advent of a greater messiah of a new age for humanity and existence to Mulla Husayn, an Islamic priest to become the Bab's first disciple. On this day the first telegraph message was sent from Baltimeore to Wahington, DC by Samuel Morse. It said, 'What God hath wrought!'

In this age two stars, not one shall illumine the heavens.

This began a bloody tumultuous history of a new faith with tens of thousands of martyrs.

The Bab was imprisoned in a distant small town in Azerbaijan, in hopes of quelling the growing faith, but the faith continued to grow and the slaughter continued unabated. In 1848 the Bab was taken to Tabriz for a trial and execution. The execution was to take place in the public square before more than ten thousand witnesses and officers of the Persian and Russian military.

When the attendent came to the cell on that that day to take him to be executed the Bab said, 'Not until I have said to him (his secratary) all things that I wish to say can any earthly power silence me, . . .'

Nontheless the Bab was taken from his cell and bound with another young believer before the firing squad. After the smoke cleared from volley after volley from three rows of 250 riflemen of the regiment. The Bab was gone and the young man was left standing with the ropes cut by the bullets. The Bab was found back in his cell dicatating to his secretary.

After the Bab completed his dictation he told the attendent, 'I have finished . . . Now you may proceed with your intention.'

The Bab was then executed before the witnesses. After the shots were fired a huge dust storm blanketed the city and darkened the skies from noon until evening.

The important point is that most of the witnesses and records for this event are not from believers, a considerable effort was made to eleminate all believers who may have been witnesses in an effort to prevent the story from being retold.

For further reading 'Seeking Faith' by Nathan Rutstein is good.

Eat your heart out JP, the 'Impossible Faith' happened again and this time it is reasonably well documented.

Interesting story shuny. And I have no problem with it I mean I have no
problem with the idea that miracles can happen outside of the Christian
religion. (I mean I believe the devil can do miracles not that that's what I
believe necessarily happened with shuny's story) But I'll be interested to see
how Robin looks at it.

Scarey thing for atheists though is the moment they accept the possibility of
miracles then they have just opened up the metaphysical world and in the
metaphysical world theism has the advantage over atheism.

Originally posted by shunyadragon

How about a Baha'i miracle?

Who exactly was it who "well documented" this thing?

When I asked my family members who were/are Bahai, I couldn't get an answer. Maybe Puff can do better. But I doubt it.

Eat your heart out JP, the 'Impossible Faith' happened again and this time it is reasonably well documented.

I rather doubt you could apply any of the 17 factors to any of this without drooling on yourself.

Originally posted by salvationfound

Interesting story shuny.

Isn’t it?

One clarification for those who might have been puzzled by the reference to “Tabriz” in the context of Azerbaijan, having been accustomed to thinking of it as a provincial capital in Iran rather than a city in the former Soviet republic of Azerbaijan.

What is going on? Well, as most here probably know, Azerbaijan was divided by the Turkmanchay Agreement of 1828 into a northern section given to Russia and a southern section given to Iran. That northern section is what has evolved into the present-day nation of Azerbaijan, whereas the southern section remains an area in northwest Iran. It was to Southern Azerbaijan that the Bab was sent.

And I have no problem with it I mean I have no
problem with the idea that miracles can happen outside of the Christian
religion. (I mean I believe the devil can do miracles not that that's what I
believe necessarily happened with shuny's story) But I'll be interested to see
how Robin looks at it.

My feeling is that any claim inconsistent with what we’ve been able to verify about the world is inherently unlikely and would need extraordinarily strong evidence to warrant belief. Naturally, that would include not only this Bab claim, but also the claim that another man arose after three days of death because that particular man is actually the creator of the universe.

In more specific terms, I agree with JP: Let’s see the quality of the evidence.

Interestingly, JP seems to be challenging the authenticity of the Bahá'í miracle but not that of the miracles associated with the cult of Mary. I wonder if this represents a tacit acceptance that they are indeed miracles.

Scarey thing for atheists though is the moment they accept the possibility of miracles then they have just opened up the metaphysical world and in the metaphysical world theism has the advantage over atheism.

Yes, positive atheism is a tough road to hoe. As an agnostic, on the other hand, I remain open to the possibility of miracles.

Robin

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

I mean if you're a protestant. Spl_cadet has already done of good job of this from a Catholic standpoint.

And I don't mean evidence from your personal life. I mean publicly verifiable evidence.

Robin

That's easy - none of the atheists around here have been blue bolted yet....




(I'm sorry - I just couldn't resist ... I'll leave your thread alone now, I promise....)

Originally posted by jpholding

Who exactly was it who "well documented" this thing?

When I asked my family members who were/are Bahai, I couldn't get an answer. Maybe Puff can do better. But I doubt it.

Many Baha'is may not be aware of this in part because the teachings do not empasize proofs as such in the western concept. The concept of proofs exist in Baha'i writings, but not in the way westerners would understand things as proven.

I am more of a history and religion student then most and in the past I had collected a rather substantial library cross referenced in my computer. It used to be in a huge library, but that got so unmanagable it turned into a bookstore. Thank goodness for computers and the internet, now most of it sits on my desk and in a small bookcase of mostly notebooks. My thanks to Tweb as my teacher in Christianity and Judaism, as the breth of my knowledge and perspective has increased considerable from the quality of some of the debates here.

The principle source is the evidence and documentation collected by the controversial historical figure Joseph-Arthur Comte de Gobineau while he was a French diplomate stationed in Persia. He never became a Baha'i, in fact promoted ideals quite contrary to Baha'i teachings.

Gobineau managed to save a very important manuscript concerning the events and history and he collected evidence and interviews of sources during the time these events took place. He personally knew many Russian and Persian military and government officials at that time.

The other source is a Baha'i publication called Dawn Breakers by Nabil, also collects more evidence and documentation on the early history of the faith, and refers to Gobineau's writtings.

http://www.answers.com/topic/arthur-de-gobineau

Joseph Arthur Comte de Gobineau (July 14, 1816 - October 13, 1882) was a French aristocrat who became famous for developing the theory of the Aryan master race in his book An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (1853-1855).
Gobineau was a successful diplomat whose career in Iran influenced the development of his ideas. He came to believe that race created culture. In his view the development of empires created racial mixture, which led to the 'degeneration' of races. He called this process Semiticization, because of his belief that Semitic peoples were a product of the Middle-Eastern cross-over between the otherwise distinct "black", "white" and "yellow" races.

He is also known to Bahá'is as the person who obtained the only complete manuscript of the early history of the Bábí religious movement of Persia, written by Hâjji Mirza Jân of Kashan who was put to death by the Persian authorities in c.1852. The manuscript is now in the public library: the Bibliothèque nationale at Paris.

---

© source where applicable

I rather doubt you could apply any of the 17 factors to any of this without drooling on yourself.

I have no problem with documenting paralells of the 17 factors in the history of many faiths of the world. It is just that the Baha'i Faith is a better documented history than ancient records.

Sorry no camcorders, CNN reporters or notery publics to certify this and other miracles. There will never be proof, and there is always a logical out for worldly skeptics and devoted believers like salvationfound (I mean I believe the devil can do miracles not that that's what I believe necessarily happened with shuny's story), but nonetheless the documentation provided is reasonable by modern standards.

The witness of the verocity of the Baha'i Faiths claims does not rest in miracles, but the power of the Word as witnessed in history and the human evolving nature before and since 1844.

'If you split an atom you will reveal the sun.'

Originally posted by Robin Goodfellow

Interestingly, JP seems to be challenging the authenticity of the Bahá'í miracle but not that of the miracles associated with the cult of Mary. I wonder if this represents a tacit acceptance that they are indeed miracles.

Not a chance. JP took issue with his name and centerpiece being used in vain. He really is not interested in the cult of Mary or things of that nature...

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Not a chance. JP took issue with his name and centerpiece being used in vain. He really is not interested in the cult of Mary or things of that nature...

JP likely has a special search feature that let's him know when anyone refers to him in a post. It is handy, because if you ever want to tweak JP, no need to PM, you just refer to him in a post, and he'll be there.

Despite all static and interference JP is also one of my teachers.

Originally posted by Bill the Cat

Not a chance. JP took issue with his name and centerpiece being used in vain. He really is not interested in the cult of Mary or things of that nature...

I’m not sure where you got the impression that I thought JP had an interest in the cult of Mary. I have no reason to think he does, just as I have no reason to think he has an interest in the Bahá'í faith. But why should that necessarily prevent him from having an opinion on whether their miracle claims are believable?

He seemed willing to share his thoughts on the Bab question. Why not give him a chance to share them on mine?

Robin

Originally posted by shunyadragon

Many Baha'is may not be aware of this in part because the teachings do not empasize proofs as such in the western concept.

This is just a long winded way of saying you have none.

The principle source is the evidence and documentation collected by the controversial historical figure Joseph-Arthur Comte de Gobineau while he was a French diplomate stationed in Persia. He never became a Baha'i, in fact promoted ideals quite contrary to Baha'i teachings.

In other words, not even an eyewitness account as we have with the Gospels...no, don't dispute it; I know you're too danged chicken to argue it with me. For the 654th time....

Pardon me is I don't accept "answers.com" as a reliable source, since it seems you don't have any real scholarship of the sort I use in TIF to back you up.

And your man sounds like the sort who would forge something like the Protocols of Zion....you sure you want to play that card?

I have no problem with documenting paralells of the 17 factors in the history of many faiths of the world.

Must be a problem, since all you do is flap your yap rather than actually doing it.

The witness of the verocity of the Baha'i Faiths claims does not rest in miracles, but the power of the Word as witnessed in history and the human evolving nature before and since 1844.

Funny, the Mormons, who popped in about the same time say exactly the same thing.

'If you split an atom you will reveal the sun.'

What do you reveal if you split a Bahai apologist's head open?


And no, I don't have a search function I use...unless you count Bill and other TWebbers as such.



(Robin: Bill is right; I don't have much interest in the Mary apparations...I don't care if they are real or not...)

Originally posted by jpholding

This is just a long winded way of saying you have none

In other words, not even an eyewitness account as we have with the Gospels...no, don't dispute it; I know you're too danged chicken to argue it with me. For the 654th time....

This post is not one of your better responses JP, and it in reality does not reflect the fact that you bothered to check out the sources as to what the nature of the testimony involved is. The fact that Comte Gobineau is a none believer and was present in Persia at the time and collected testimony of the events at the time is far more verifiable evidence than is reflected in the Christian claims at the time Christ lived.

Pardon me is I don't accept "answers.com" as a reliable source, since it seems you don't have any real scholarship of the sort I use in TIF to back you up.

Is this a real answer JP? The reliability of 'answers.com' is not an issue. This simply the same information available from many sources concerning a simple basic bibliography of Comte Gobineau. Can you cite anything specific about it the would give reason that it would not be credible?

And your man sounds like the sort who would forge something like the Protocols of Zion....you sure you want to play that card?



Must be a problem, since all you do is flap your yap rather than actually doing it.

Not the topic of this thread, but the history of the Baha'i Faith reflects a rapid growth in the early years in the face of overwelming brutal persecution that resulted in the death of tens of thousands of belivers, radical anti-Baha'i Mullas did convert (like Paul) to become Baha'is and became martyrs themselves, miracles were witnessed and the believers willing continued to believe in the face of certain very cruel martyrdom.

If you wish to challenge me on this do so properly. Remember my responses will not be based on the truth or falsehood of the Baha'i or Christian claim, but on the simple fact that the claims of an 'Impossible Faith' are not unique to only one belief. This claim is one that is easily demonstrated, and does not require any stretch of well known facts about the Baha'i Faith, Christianity or other religions as well.

Originally posted by shunyadragon

This post is not one of your better responses JP, and it in reality does not reflect the fact that you bothered to check out the sources as to what the nature of the testimony involved is

That's your fault if anyone's. I asked you to defend your thesis.

The fact that Comte Gobineau is a none believer and was present in Persia at the time and collected testimony of the events at the time is far more verifiable evidence than is reflected in the Christian claims at the time Christ lived.

As noted, to which you never answer, baloney. The fact that he was a racist pig is a serious problem you need to deal with, let alone that you have no eyewitnesses at all to the event, to say nothing of no ripple effect of history that helps you in TIF fashion.

The story also raises some questions. Here's two I have:

*A firing squad of *250* men for a mere two prisoners makes no sense. It's wasteful and extravagant. What evidence do you have that this was a typical practice (in terms of size of firing squads). Multiple volleys being fired makes even less sense.

* The smoke from the guns would obscure the firing squad, not the victim, who should have been in plain sight to observers.

Is this a real answer JP? The reliability of 'answers.com' is not an issue.

Uh, yes it is. It's not worth a hill of beans. If you have sources of a scholarly nature, bring them. Obviously you don't. Otherwise I may as well throw Wikipedia back to you.

Not the topic of this thread, but the history of the Baha'i Faith reflects a rapid growth in the early years in the face of overwelming brutal persecution

Sounds like the Mormons. So who do I join?

If you wish to challenge me on this do so properly. Remember my responses will not be based on the truth or falsehood of the Baha'i or Christian claim, but on the simple fact that the claims of an 'Impossible Faith' are not unique to only one belief.

We'll spend years watching you flap your yap boasting this before you do any systematic comparison using the 17 factors.