Twice on the "Eschatology 201" Forum I have been accused of "heresy".Since the accusations were made on this forum I will answer them on this forum.

Earlier I quoted Sir Robert Anderson who said that the Lord Jesus "is enthroned as Man,but no longer in 'flesh and blood'.For ere He 'passed through the heavens' He changed His dress".

Dee Dee wrote:

And that is distinctly heretical doctrine which has no place in this section.

I have zero desire to debate heresy. If you don't know that the denial of the current enfleshment of Christ has been considered heretical you need to get a bit more knowledge.

"L" wrote:

Your "fables", however, are much more dangerous. You deny essentials, such as the continuing incrnation of Christ...

How can I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is now sitting at the right hand of God in an "earthy","natural" body?

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" (1Cor.15:44,47-49).

If I ignored these Scriptures and believed the "traditions" invented by man then perhaps I could believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is now sitting at His Father's throne in an "earthy",flesh and blood body.

And I guess that Dee Dee and "L" have no problem believing that He is now in heaven in an "earthly" body and not a "heavenly" body.They can somehow ignore the words of Paul that I quoted and imagine Him now in a "natural" body and not in a "spiritual" body.

Here is Paul's description of the present state of the Lord Jesus:

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1Tim.1:17).

If the Lord Jesus was in a "flesh and blood" body then why would Paul describe Him as being "invisible"?

He has an "eternal" body:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2Cor.4:18).

Evidently Dee Dee and "L" cannot distinguish between the "temporal" and the "eternal".They think that the Lord Jesus is now sitting in heaven in an "earthy" body and not a "heavenly" body and in a "natural" body and not a "spiritual" body.

And with their limited understanding of these things they dare to accuse others of "heresy".And of course since Dee Dee does not want to debate this issue she just says that she will not debate heresy.

She always finds an excuse not to debate when she has no answers.I guess that she realizes that it would be difficult to argue that the Lord is now in heaven in an "earthy" body and not a "heavenly" body.

In Christ,
Mickey

Titus 2:13 not ring any bells?

Originally posted by rayado

Titus 2:13 not ring any bells?

Hi rayado,

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"(Titus 2:13).

Is this verse not in regard to the time when the Lord Jesus will appear in the heavens and believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air?At that time Christians will put on glorious bodies just like His glorious body (Phil.3:20,21).

And that is exactly what Paul speaks of when he says that the Christian will "be changed":

"As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly...Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"(1Cor.15:48,49,51,52).

The Christian will meet the Lord in the air and put on a new,glorious body,a body which Paul describes as being a "spiritual" body and a "heavenly" body.And that body will be like the body of the Lord when the Christian meets Him in the air.

In Christ,
Mickey

if you are going to appeal to 1 Cor 15, you may as well read the whole chapter. that pretty much destroys your position.

appealing to the "spiritual body" language won't help you. the word "body" itself entails something corporeal. at best you have a tangible body, but with spiritual traits it didn't have before.

don't assume physical traits and spiritual traits are mutually exclusive. that is a grave mistake folks who accept this herecy make.

Originally posted by Sheepdog

if you are going to appeal to 1 Cor 15, you may as well read the whole chapter. that pretty much destroys your position.

appealing to the "spiritual body" language won't help you. the word "body" itself entails something corporeal. at best you have a tangible body, but with spiritual traits it didn't have before.

don't assume physical traits and spiritual traits are mutually exclusive. that is a grave mistake folks who accept this herecy make.

First of all,since I was accused of heresy on the "Eschatology 201" forum then I should be able to defend myself on the same forum.

But of course those in charge have no wish that the truth of the matter should be exposed on the "Eschatlogy 201" forum,so of course they want it moved.

Too bad that those who made the false accusations will not attempt to defend those false accusations.Typical!

Now to your remarks,Sheepdog.

appealing to the "spiritual body" language won't help you. the word "body" itself entails something corporeal.

Yes,they help me except for those who can confuse an "natural" body with a "spiritual" body.A "natural" body is made up of "flesh and blood" while a "spiritual" body is not.

In order to illustrate that when the Christian puts on a "heavenly" body that is suitable for the eternal kingdom of heaven he says:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1Cor.15:50).

But to those who accuse me of heresy this verse has no meaning.If the Lord is sitting at the right hand of the Father in a "flesh and blood" body then Paul would never desribe Him as being "invisible".But He does just that:

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1Tim.1:17).

And Paul describes the characterics of things eternal:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2Cor.4:18).

But since this is above the heads of those who made this false accusation they cannot answer in an intelligent manner.In fact,they will not answer at all.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

First of all,since I was accused of heresy on the "Eschatology 201" forum then I should be able to defend myself on the same forum.

But of course those in charge have no wish that the truth of the matter should be exposed on the "Eschatlogy 201" forum,so of course they want it moved.

Too bad that those who made the false accusations will not attempt to defend those false accusations.Typical!

if you have a beef, take it to the locker room.

Now to your remarks,Sheepdog.

Yes,they help me except for those who can confuse an "natural" body with a "spiritual" body.A "natural" body is made up of "flesh and blood" while a "spiritual" body is not.

except a body, spiritual or not, is made of flesh and bone (if not flesh and blood), by definition. adding the "spiritual" adjective to the noun doesn't change that, it only adds meaning.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1Cor.15:50).

again, reading all the text destroys you. (51) Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— (52) in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (53) For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (54) When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g]

by itself, flesh and blood indeed cannot inherit the kingdom of God. that is why "the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." there is no removal of the corporeal body, but an addition-- we are being clothed in immortality. nothing is being subtracted here. nothing in the text suggests taht the removal of flesh and blood will bring about the inheritance either.

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1Tim.1:17).

sounds like an apt description of the Father, who is often refered to as God for short.

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2Cor.4:18).

But since this is above the heads of those who made this false accusation they cannot answer in an intelligent manner.In fact,they will not answer at all.

not really. your position is rejected by orthodoxy at a fundamental level and thus is heresy. no matter what you say. now, why pray tell is eternality mutually exclusive of corporeality? immortality is an addition to, not a subtraction of, the flesh.

Jesus was resurrected in a body of flesh:

Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."



He went up in a body of flesh and will return the same way.

Acts 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Originally posted by Mickey

[...] Yes,they help me except for those who can confuse an "natural" body with a "spiritual" body.A "natural" body is made up of "flesh and blood" while a "spiritual" body is not. [...]

Wrong, wrong, WRONG! A natural "body" is EXACTLY the same "body" as a spiritual "body". The Greek word is soma and it means a physical body PERIOD. There's no squirming room available.

Originally posted by Xavier

Wrong, wrong, WRONG! A natural "body" is EXACTLY the same "body" as a spiritual "body". The Greek word is soma and it means a physical body PERIOD. There's no squirming room available.

In Resurrection of the Son of God, Wright makes the excellent point that "physical" and "spiritual" in 1 Cor 15, Paul was referring not to what constitutes the body, but what animates the body. In other words, the "spiritual body" is not a body made of some incorporeal substance we call "spirit," but rather that the body is powered by the Spirit of God.

Originally posted by Amazing Rando

In Resurrection of the Son of God, Wright makes the excellent point that "physical" and "spiritual" in 1 Cor 15, Paul was referring not to what constitutes the body, but what animates the body. In other words, the "spiritual body" is not a body made of some incorporeal substance we call "spirit," but rather that the body is powered by the Spirit of God.

yup. basically is it what motivates the body. If a person is motivated by God, even now we call him a spiritual man. If he is motivated by lust, we call him a carnal man. A spiritual body is a body that is controlled by the spirit and not by sin.

It's still a body. If it were not a body but just 'spirit' then there would be no resurrection. The word resurrection implies something is being reanimated. If you die and become a ghost, then that is just normal death. Resurrection is the reanimating of your body back to life again. If you stay a ghost then where is the resurrection?

Originally posted by Sparko

yup. basically is it what motivates the body. If a person is motivated by God, even now we call him a spiritual man. If he is motivated by lust, we call him a carnal man. A spiritual body is a body that is controlled by the spirit and not by sin.

It's still a body. If it were not a body but just 'spirit' then there would be no resurrection. The word resurrection implies something is being reanimated. If you die and become a ghost, then that is just normal death. Resurrection is the reanimating of your body back to life again. If you stay a ghost then where is the resurrection?

Funny, all this time I never realized that Mickey was essentially gnostic in his outlook until his comments in this thread.

Originally posted by Sparko

Jesus was resurrected in a body of flesh:

He went up in a body of flesh and will return the same way.

Yes,but when He is in heaven will he have on a "heavenly" body or an "earthy" body?

Of course a heavenly body.And when He is in the eternal kingdom of God He will not be in a "flesh and blood" body:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1Cor.15:50).

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Amazing Rando

In Resurrection of the Son of God, Wright makes the excellent point that "physical" and "spiritual" in 1 Cor 15, Paul was referring not to what constitutes the body, but what animates the body.

I guess the animation also makes the "flesh and blood" body "invisible" also:

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1Tim.1:17).

You should stick to the Scriptures and avoid the babblings of men like Wright.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

Yes,but when He is in heaven will he have on a "heavenly" body or an "earthy" body?

Of course a heavenly body.And when He is in the eternal kingdom of God He will not be in a "flesh and blood" body:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1Cor.15:50).

In Christ,
Mickey

So you are saying

He died in a flesh body. yes or no?

He was resurrected in a flesh body. yes or no?


went up in the air in a flesh body yes or no?

but took OFF the flesh body when he got to heaven and what? Hung it up on a closet like a used suit? yes or no?

So, when we are resurrected like Jesus (as he was first fruits) will we have a body of flesh and bone like Jesus did when he was resurrected?

Originally posted by Amazing Rando

Funny, all this time I never realized that Mickey was essentially gnostic in his outlook until his comments in this thread.

We knew that long ago, and he is hyperdispensationalist as well.

Originally posted by Sparko

So you are saying

He died in a flesh body. yes or no?

Yes.

He was resurrected in a flesh body. yes or no?

Yes.

You should actually read what I said in my initial post.

went up in the air in a flesh body yes or no?

Yes.

but took OFF the flesh body when he got to heaven and what? Hung it up on a closet like a used suit? yes or no?

When He left the "temporal" sphere He no longer needed a "earthy" body" but instead needed an "spiritual" body.

So, when we are resurrected like Jesus (as he was first fruits) will we have a body of flesh and bone like Jesus did when he was resurrected?

The resurrection that Paul speaks aout at 1 Cor.15 is not in regard to an "earthy" body but instead a "spirtual" body.

In Christ,
Mickey