Hi Rossolina,

This is the typical answer you will get from the preterists:

Originally posted by Darth Xena

The majority of preterists today would say not just Revelation 20 is ongoing but that Revelation 19 is as well. (and L is right - idealism is a another view that a goodly number of preterists believe as well)

Since,according to them,we are already in Revelation 19 and 20.That means that the following things have already happened:

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations..."(Rev.13:6,7).

I still not have ever heard any preterist explain when that happened.The events which the Lord Jesus described as happening at the "end of the age" (Mt.24:3) involve the whole world,and not just Israel as the preterists would have you believe:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man"(Lk.21:35,36).

In another place the Lord Jesus made it plain that the judgment at the "end of the age" will involve the whole world.In His parable of the tares of the field He said:

"The field is the world...the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father"(Mt.13:38-43).

Despite all this the preterists say that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfills all of these prophecies.The judgment that will take place upon the whole earth remains in the future.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by Mickey

Hi Rossolina,

This is the typical answer you will get from the preterists:

Since,according to them,we are already in Revelation 19 and 20.That means that the following things have already happened:

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations..."(Rev.13:6,7).

I still not have ever heard any preterist explain when that happened.The events which the Lord Jesus described as happening at the "end of the age" (Mt.24:3) involve the whole world,and not just Israel as the preterists would have you believe:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man"(Lk.21:35,36).

In another place the Lord Jesus made it plain that the judgment at the "end of the age" will involve the whole world.In His parable of the tares of the field He said:

"The field is the world...the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father"(Mt.13:38-43).

Despite all this the preterists say that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfills all of these prophecies.The judgment that will take place upon the whole earth remains in the future.

In Christ,
Mickey

Wow I havent sen some one get preterism this wrong in quiet some time, or are you just throwing out a

Ross, Mickey is a trollish poster who was sent packing with his hindquarters stinging from the forum preterists a bit ago. He doesn't speak for the futurists here in general, they have much better arguments and debating ability. Mickey further just got done shamelessly promoting heresy in another thread.

However.. this thread seems to me to be by you not to have trollish posts such as that above, i.e. you seem to want to have an irenic thread to be able to ask preterists certain questions. If I have you correct, you as the thread-starter have the right to control the direction of your thread, just say so. If you don't mind those kinds of interuptions, that is your choice as well.

Originally posted by Darth Xena

Ross, Mickey is a trollish poster who was sent packing with his hindquarters stinging from the forum preterists a bit ago.

Really?

Since I go by the name "Mickey" only on this forum how would you know that I got sent packing from any forum in the past?

Ross,also notice that they refuse to address the verses which I quoted.If they have already happened then when did they happen?They have no answer.

In Christ,
Mickey

Originally posted by studyhound

Wow I havent sen some one get preterism this wrong in quiet some time, or are you just throwing out a
:burn:

Mickey misread the OP, he thought it said Misunderstanding Preterism.

Originally posted by Mickey

Really?

Since I go by the name "Mickey" only on this forum how would you know that I got sent packing from any forum in the past?

Ross,also notice that they refuse to address the verses which I quoted.If they have already happened then when did they happen?They have no answer.

In Christ,
Mickey

They happened about the same time the Gospel was preached to all the world. Actually a few years later...

This forum Mickey, not any other forum. Read carefully. That might help you with your preterism problem too.

First off, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm enjoying trying to understand this as I find it rather fascinating :) Please bear with me if I ask any repetitive questions, I'm just doing my best to understand it to the greatest extent possible before I say I align with it.

A few questions:

1. To me it would appear that the 1,000 years haven't started yet? Unless I'm missing something, it seems that Satan is locked up during that time and can't "deceive the nations." Provided this was true, why does it seem our country and world still is very much alive with an evil force. Is there a solid preterist approach that also believes the Millennial period is yet to come? If not, how do you justify that it has started.

2. I'm involved at another forum and don't mind watching people get set in place. Therefore feel free to answer his questions (even if you have done so before) because if anything I'd like to understand the small drop of doubt that his post put in my mind. However I don't want it go to to in depth or off the subject of basic preterism, atleast until I feel informed enough to begin interjecting more of my personal opinion into it.

Thanks again ;)

Ross another quick link for you, I have indexed some good theology preterism threads here:

http://www.preteristsite.com/theologyweb.html

Those includes the ones where Mickey was trounced pretty thoroughly by Faramir and some good discussions with the able nonpreterists of this forum

Originally posted by Darth Xena

Ross another quick link for you, I have indexed some good theology preterism threads here:

http://www.preteristsite.com/theologyweb.html

Those includes the ones where Mickey was trounced pretty thoroughly by Faramir and some good discussions with the able nonpreterists of this forum

I'll look through that tonight, but I would love if you could answer his objections here, just because he specifically directed them here and I suppose I would enjoy seeing him shut down :P

Thanks very much though!

Also, that seems to deal with Post and A Millennial. What about Pre-Millennial?

Originally posted by Rossolini

First off, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm enjoying trying to understand this as I find it rather fascinating :) Please bear with me if I ask any repetitive questions, I'm just doing my best to understand it to the greatest extent possible before I say I align with it.

A few questions:

1. To me it would appear that the 1,000 years haven't started yet? Unless I'm missing something, it seems that Satan is locked up during that time and can't "deceive the nations." Provided this was true, why does it seem our country and world still is very much alive with an evil force. Is there a solid preterist approach that also believes the Millenial period is yet to come? If not, how do you justify that it has started.

2. I'm involved at another forum and don't mind watching people get set in place. Therefore feel free to answer his questions (even if you have done so before) because if anything I'd like to understand the small drop of doubt that his post put in my mind. However I don't want it go to to in depth or off the subject of basic preterism, atleast until I feel informed enough to begin interjecting more of my personal opinion into it.

Thanks again ;)

1. To me it would appear that the 1,000 years haven't started yet? Unless I'm missing something, it seems that Satan is locked up during that time and can't "deceive the nations." Provided this was true, why does it seem our country and world still is very much alive with an evil force. Is there a solid preterist approach that also believes the Millenial period is yet to come? If not, how do you justify that it has started.


Certainly we would agree that Christ is enthroned and ruling today.

We would also agree that every believer alive was formerly a subject of the kingdom of darkness and has been set free, being made a new creation in Christ.

We would aslo agree that the believer is safe from the Secon Death having already been granted eternal life through Christ.

We would agree that by logic and direct apostolic application the believer 's current status is that ofa royal priest.

And of course we know that Paul says we 'reign in life through one Jesus Christ'..

So unless I ve forgotten some detail R 20 is covered.

Oh yeah the current activty of the enemy...



Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


The historic 'rule' of Christ is defined by the success of the Kingdom while her enemies are present.



Take care

H

Ross I don't waste time with Mickey, I don't waste time with trolls of any sort. His objections were answered here ad nauseam in the past.

And in all fairness even if he were not a troll (which unfortunately he is) I am on very limited time for forum discussions, thus the links. I have been very ill, and my job is extraordinarily busy right now.

And Ross remember, don't judge opposition to preterism nonfavorably because Mickey does poorly, he is not a good representative of non-preterism.

Originally posted by Rossolini

First off, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm enjoying trying to understand this as I find it rather fascinating :) Please bear with me if I ask any repetitive questions, I'm just doing my best to understand it to the greatest extent possible before I say I align with it.

A few questions:

1. To me it would appear that the 1,000 years haven't started yet? Unless I'm missing something, it seems that Satan is locked up during that time and can't "deceive the nations." Provided this was true, why does it seem our country and world still is very much alive with an evil force. Is there a solid preterist approach that also believes the Millenial period is yet to come? If not, how do you justify that it has started.

Well, preterism is far from monolithic so what I am about to say is one preterist interpretation (and I think the most prevelant, but I am not sure) of the "binding of Satan".

And for time and space sake I will give a very brief explanation of my understanding of the primary "structure" of Revelation, it is not lengthy enough to be persuasive, but it is necessary to explain why I interpret that verse like I do.

Revelation is primarily (especially after Ch. 3) a prohecy in the style of Old Testament prophecies. OT prophecies dealt with "predictions of the future" to be certain, but always in the context of covenantal blessings and cursings.

Revelation is no different. Revelation was written as the "final" prophetic proclemation of the delivery of the covenantal curse to ethnic Israel, declaring and end to the exclusive nature of the covenant with ethnic Israel (the harlot) and the extension of the (new) covenant to the Church (the bride).

From the time of the Abrahamic covenant, God's covenant has been restricted to one ethnic line of descent. As a result the other "nations" had been "deceived" and unable to worship the One True God. Note specifically the passage in Daniel where the archangel Michael has to "contend with the Prince of Persia".

Under the New Covenant of Christ, the gospel was made available to "all nations" (Note that nations more often than not in scripture is a reference to "ethnic people groups").

So Satan being bound is his being bound in his ability to "decieve the nations". God is now worshiped all across the globe, not just in geographic Israel, and not just by ethnic Jews.

I hope that made some sense.

I understand that Hitch, but if Satan is locked up (per Revelation 20) then wouldn't there either A) have been a period of absolute peace considering Satan could not decieve anyone or B) we would currently be in this period of peace. It seems only logical to think that we have not hit the Millennial period yet in my opinion, but there could easily be something I'm missing.

Faramir, sorry I missed your post. That makes a good bit of sense. If anyone has another view or would like to add to that, I would appreciate that as well.

Originally posted by Darth Xena

Ross I don't waste time with Mickey, I don't waste time with trolls of any sort. His objections were answered here ad nauseam in the past.

And in all fairness even if he were not a troll (which unfortunately he is) I am on very limited time for forum discussions, thus the links. I have been very ill, and my job is extraordinarily busy right now.

And Ross remember, don't judge opposition to preterism nonfavorably because Mickey does poorly, he is not a good representative of non-preterism.

Ah okay :P Well I trust you guys and don't (after what you have been saying) find him very credible so I'll just search some old threads and see the response to his objections.

Get well soon Xena :)

This isn't exaclty on point, but I looked through my notes of old (and I mean years old so some/lot of it I may have refined) forum discussions and found this one thing on the thousand years (I am looking for other stuff) - the "you" and stuff is referring to my discussion participant in that old thread

*****

Okay about the “thousand years.” Basically you are asking how do we know that it is not a “literal” one thousand years. Well first of all, in hindsight we know it because it has been more than a thousand years since the “millennium” started and it has not ended yet. That is the pragmatic and admittedly circular answer. But the exegetical answer is quite simple as well. Revelation contains hundreds of allusions to the Old Testament and is thoroughly seeped in Jewish symbolism. In Jewish idiom and poetic thought, numbers were important. Ten was the number of quantitative completeness. (seven by contrast is the number of qualitative completeness. Three is the number of amplification. (for example, God is called “holy, holy, holy”) it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10x10x10), in order to express great values [a perfect cube of ten – quantitative perfection] So,10x10x10 is quantitative completeness amplified. It is the perfect intensely complete period of time. Another example in Revelation demonstrates this:

Rev 5:11 – Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.


The number thousand is commonly used this way in the OT. For example:

Ps 50:10 - For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Thus God claims to own the cattle on a thousand hills (Ps. 50:10). This of course does not mean that the cattle on the 1001st hill belongs to someone else. God owns all the cattle on all the hills. But He says, “a thousand” to indicate that there are many hills and much cattle. See also:

Deut 1:11 – May the LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times more numerous than you are, and bless you as He has promised you!

Deut 7:9 - Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments.

Job 9:2-3 – Truly I know it is so, but how can a man be righteous before God?
If one wished to contend with Him, he could not answer Him one time out of a thousand.

Psalm 68:17 – The chariots of God are twenty thousand, Even thousands of thousands; The Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the Holy Place.

Psalm 84:10 – For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand.

Ps 90:4 – For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night.

Ps 105:8 – He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations.

It was an idiom. We kind of today use the word “million” in the same way, and we must let the Bible tell us how to interpret the Bible.

Similarly the thousand years of Revelation 20 represent a vast, undefined period of time which fits in well with the OT descriptions of the Messianic reign as “everlasting” and “forever” which are Hebrew words designating a very long period of time but not necessarily forever as we understand it (for that would be in contradiction to what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15). A literal “one thousand” is not even the Hebrew idea of forever and would not fit in with the descriptions of the length of the Messianic reign. Remember that Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15, that the “rapture” ENDS the Messianic reign of Christ, not begins it. So by necessity, the “millennium” precedes the rapture.

In light of all of this, it is interesting that such a crucial doctrine to premillenialism as the thousand year reign, is only supposedly mentioned here. If a literal earthly millennium is so prominent in the thoughts of the apostles and such an important era in redemptive history we should it expect to appear multiple times in the NT
NOT ONLY in the most figurative book of all Scripture.